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  • Posted by kategladstone 12 years ago
    A phrase literally equivalent to "make money" ("faire d'argent") is common in medical French documents, with the same meaning as "make money" in English.
    I say "in English" (rather than " in American English") with intent: as the Oxford English Dictionary documents that the phrase was used in England (again, with the same meaning) at a period before the colonization of America. "To make money,," then, was not unique to America,mand was not created by Americans. (Like many an old phrase or usage, it went out of currency where it had been coined, only to survive elsewhere.)
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    • Posted by $ 12 years ago
      Thanks, Kate! I always appreciated your etymologies, even as we disagreed. You have a broad range of interests and expertise that will be appreciated by many of the regulars here. (Stop by the Introductions and let others know that you are in the Gulch.)
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      • Posted by kategladstone 12 years ago
        I don't know where to find Introductions — that page isn't displaying on my device, for some reason. Please send my e-mail account a link: handwritingrepair@gmail.com
        Meanwhile — thanks for welcoming my info. Decades ago, at college where I'd joined an Objectivist group (or something whose leaders said it was an Objectivist group), I was expelled for (among other things) bringing in documentation of this very point (that the idiom "make money" originated before, and outside, the USA).
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        • Posted by kategladstone 12 years ago
          Though I thank Mike Marotta for the link to Introductions, when I reached that page I couldn't discover how to create an introduction of my own. (This may mean I'm too stupid for the Gulch. If so, expel me — if not, consider telling me what I'm missing that will allow me to do as Mike requests.)
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  • Posted by Danno 12 years ago
    On a philosophical level, we know energy and matter can only be transformed, not destroyed/created. The ultimate bad outcome for humans is Entropy. So though it appears that America created Wealth it really only transformed other energy/matter in something humans call Wealth. The End Game is tricky.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 12 years ago
      Just because energy and matter are conserved does not mean that people have not created wealth. If I convert carbon chains into heat (fire) I am wealthier; if I convert sunlight and carbon into wheat, corn, cows, I am wealthier; if I convert iron oxide and coal into steel and form it into engines, cars, railroads, I am wealthier. Wealth is about rearranging matter and energy to sustain human life.

      The Entropy argument, commonly used by environmentalists, is based on a misunderstanding of entropy. The Earth is not a closed system, so entropy does not apply to Earth. Most likely the Universe is not a closed system either, it is probably infinite and entropy would not apply.
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      • Posted by Danno 12 years ago
        A glass with ice at 40 F will over time equalize its temperature with the room; the room cools just a bit and the water warms a lot. The result is less concentrated energy hence more entropy. I take it you did not study advanced physics and mathematics such and quantum and non-linear differential equations. Entropy is part of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics; please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_...... "The second law is an empirically validated postulate of thermodynamics."

        As a corollary, there is no such thing as unlimited Wealth as I defined my terms. Having so would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. I leave it to you to disprove this law if you can.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 12 years ago
          I understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics just fine. You did not answer the questions. 1) The Earth is not a closed system. 2) Entropy does not apply to the Universe.

          I have a BSEE and a MS in Physics and JD. I have worked in the high tech world my whole adult life. Respond to the actual statements, don't avoid the issues by changing the subject.
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    • Posted by BambiB 12 years ago
      Well, if you're talking about "money", you have to define that term first. If you're talking FRNs, the printing presses "make money" all day long. If you're talking gold, the supply is fixed and finite - but may be inaccessible pending suitable technology.

      But if you mean "wealth", (which I'll define as "the ability to command resources"), then you CAN make wealth. One of the main ways to do that is to conceive of and implement a new idea. Take the personal computer. The selling price of computers has always exceeded the aggregate cost of its parts. To make the point more explicitly, why is it that a Mac is valued at more than a Winblows machine? The hardware is essentially the same. What's different (primarily) is the Operating System. That's better ideas being sold at a premium - "making money/wealth". Sure, a large part of the market isn't sophisticated enough to recognize the difference between machines. Apple made it's money by retaining control of the hardware AND the operating system (the only computer company in the world to do that). Eventually, when the iPod, iPhone and iPad came along, they leveraged their superior GUI and complete control of OSs for all the devices to ensure seamless interoperability. Lots of IPad owners never would have thought about buying an iPad… except they already had an iPhone. iPhone buyers might have bought something else - except for their experience with the iPod. It's not that Microsoft didn't try to compete - remember Zune? The sometimes "Windows phone"? But they were inferior products - not because the hardware was necessarily that different, but because the quality of the "brain work" was so much different. So ideas and their implementation translate directly into "making money".

      Today, the Android phone compete with the iPhone. Again, the major difference is not in the hardware - but in the ideas. iPhones value system security over flexibility. Android opens up the system to software from anywhere. This means that if you value lots of cheap applications, you should get an android. If you are more concerned about identity theft or data corruption, the iPhone may be for you. But the difference in each case is the "idea" that goes with the hardware - not the immutable energy/matter itself.
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  • Posted by Danno 12 years ago
    What is money? Is it an object or process? We know that early humans without central government spontaneously created money from various objects. "Created from"...So money is not the object. Money is stored economic work represented by a proxy object. Each society of people has a maximum it can produce, called Potential Wealth, given the resources, labor, and capital such as buildings, machines, infrastructure, we call Base Capital. Without Money only a very basic subsistence level of Wealth can be achieved since Base Capital never develops past starting level. It takes Money to facilitate the exchange of goods to raise towards the limit of Potential Wealth. Potential Wealth can be increased by increasing Productivity and decreased by not replacing Base Capital that is used up to produce Goods (i.e. Debt). If a central authority prints too much Currency (Currency is based on Money but is one more layer of abstraction that increases chance for abuse), there is the danger that the level will exceed the Potential Wealth and cause Inflation. There are those who manage Sales/Revenue and those who manage Profit.

    A Parable: At one time America had a strong economy, all rejoiced, and politicians started to promise, promise, promise (spend, spend, spend). Over time the government spending required much more revenue but the politician didn't want to level with the voters that taxes were going to have to be raised to pay for the government provided services ("Guns and Butter"). Thus backroom deals were made under the "Trade Deal" banner so that a foreign country would partner with the American government agreeing to buy its debt in return for "free trade" that allowed cheaper products to flood the American market (the foreign country collects the dollars on the sales to America then turns around to buy T-Bills thus funding the government spending and gets "jobs"). The first partner was Japan, then Mexico and Canada (NAFTA), then China (Communist!). Over the course of those 4 decades the result was that many American factories shut down and some American companies went overseas to compete on price. All the while the politician yelled and screamed about the evil businessman who was killing the American economy by moving jobs to other countries. Most Americans who were educated in Public Schools where no Critical Thinking or Finance History are taught believed the politician that the evil businessman was responsible. All the while the government continues its promise of more and more spending ("Guns and Butter") until the American economy is destroyed and the correction comes.
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    • Posted by $ 12 years ago
      Although I liked your philosophy (Thumbs Up), I have to hold off on your history. "We know that early humans without central government spontaneously created money from various objects." We know no such thing. It was assumed on idealist/rationalist suggestion that looking at the modern world, the so-called "primitive" societies developed money along such-and-such lines. However, modern research failed to support any of that. In fact, it seems that barter is what money economies DEVOLVE to when cash is unavailable. It seems certain now that the first money qua money was invented in the first cities. One or two ice ages previously, gifts were exchanged, but not as calculated trade for profit. Primitive people do not have money, and likely never did. Money qua money was invented after writing was invented. The first money depended on literacy for contracts: cuneiform promises in clay 2000 years before the first coin.
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  • Posted by DaveM49 12 years ago
    Interesting. A number of concerns issued "scrip" well into the 20th century. By no means mining companies. Land O' Lakes Co-op printed its own money during the Great Depression, effectively creating private local economies in many small towns. A co-op is, of course, an entirely voluntary association.

    "TO MAKE MONEY"--almost a lost concept in modern-day America. In order to maintain a capitalist economic, it is necessary to produce something of tangible value or to provide a skilled service (hardly intangible but somewhat different).

    A "service economy" consisting of semi-skilled people working at low-paid jobs and others skimming wealth by making an infinite series of electronic financial transactions, cannot remain capitalist for long. Any economy that wishes to maintain itself in a global economy must, first and foremost, produce something that others want to buy.

    An old joke defines capitalism as: "you have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull". Better still, you keep both (your "capital") sell some milk (your product) and rent the neighbor's bull (a necessary service).
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 12 years ago
    Of course, the looters would never understand the concept, as for them their form of "making money" is to print more pieces of arbitrary paper, assign a random number to said papers, and coerce people into believing said pieces of paper have -real- value, as if they represented either a tangiable amount of production or tangiable substance, rather than a promise made by those who excel in not honoring promises...
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  • Posted by exindigo 12 years ago
    A good read is Glyn Davies "A history Of Money." It covers the use of money from ancient times to modern. Money, it appears, developed at an extension of barter. Traditionally people were paid in goods and most transactions were by barter. But how do you trad a barter to someone who was not involved in the process to begin with? In other words, I shoe your horse but you have nothing I want so you offer me something you have available from someone else. But that guy has a barter out too so what can you use to represent the transaction without the first guy constantly being involved? Anyway, the book covers those things quite well and how monitory systems derived from simple barters. I haven't read the book for a while but I think there's also a section on stocks and stock exchanges. The first one was in Holland for the tulip trade back in the 15th or 16th century.
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  • Posted by Danno 12 years ago
    I would like to make clear my definitions: Money is proxy for store of value and accepted as tendering for economic transaction. Productive Work provides the underpinning for the use of Money. Currency is a fabrication of central banking and was originally backed by Money such as Gold. It is the Currency that is abused not Money. Money cannot be abused, only exchanged. A unit of Money becomes worth more when Productivity increases Wealth. The value of a Currency is at the whim of the Central Bank.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago
    Now... the actual phrase from the speech:

    "the fact that they were the people who created the phrase ‘to make money.’ No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity–TO BE SEIZED, BEGGED, INERHITED, SHARED, LOOTED OR OBTAINED AS A FAVOR.

    Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be CREATED. "

    Caps mine.

    Phrases syntactically or grammatically similar may have been used for millennia, but not with the same meaning, "to *create* wealth". "Make" as in "obtain", yes... "make" as in "create", no.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
    I always interpreted that part of the money speech to typify the unique American culture. Compare to British culture for example - where one was looked down on for working in a trade. Most cultures have been about gaining status/ preserving aristocracy.
    We have all sorts of phrases that capture this unique cultural interest of finding value in making money. Time is money, money doesn't grow on
    trees,
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    • Posted by $ 12 years ago
      Tangentially, that is why the American founders _wanted_ to pay taxes. Taxes were levied on land on "real" property. As merchants, doctors, lawyers, they typically rented their homes and so did not have any "real" property under law. That mattered because only taxpayers could vote.

      Very few times and places honored merchants. You cited the Italian cities of the Renaissance. Florence, Genoa, Venice ... The Treviso Arithmetic manual has been put into the public domain as "Capitalism and Arithmetic" by Swetz and Smith. I have the book version.

      But I do not know of any 18th or 19th century sources - not Benjamin Franklin or William Graham Sumner - who perceived "making money" as "creating wealth." I think that it was only in the 20th century that money came to be understood as distinct from wealth - that wealth generates money. Money is a store of wealth.

      It gets back to the issue of land as "real" property under law, while machines and ideas were not.
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
        Now you have me going crazy here-what about Alexander Hamilton?! The father of US banking system whether one agreed with how he did it or not.
        Here's an article coming at it from a different angle. The unique characteristic of the transience of american fortunes.
        http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/to...
        John Gordon Steele is also the author of Empire of Wealth which is chock full of uniquely american concepts of wealth creation. I highly recommend this book (just skip past the Roosevelt years-because he fails in that explanation).
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
        As well, Franklin put together a pamphlet The Way To Wealth, filled with his Poor Richard's adages and proverbs including "For Want of A Nail..."
        I would agree Jefferson didn't give it much thought....
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        • Posted by Danno 12 years ago
          To paraphrase Jefferson: "One can tax Capital, Income, or Consumption; but only tax tax one of those. If you tax all three, you will surely kill the economy."
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        • Posted by $ 12 years ago
          I often cite "The Way to Wealth" with the link to Swarthmore College here: http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey...

          I agree that Alexander Hamilton and even medieval writers such as Nicole Oreseme and even Nicholas Copernicus gave good thought to the operation of money in an economy. Hamilton notoriously wanted to "encourage industry." But I think that we are speaking of something very subtle here.

          I agree that as it developed through the 19th century, by the 20th, economists came to better understand the creation of wealth. The explosion in science and technology made that apparent. A canal is just a trench with a boat and until the 1830s, the boat was pulled by a horse. Compare that with the electric telegraph and eventually radio. The canal just rearranges the given - granted in a new production. Electrical inventions created things that did not exist before based on knowledge we did not have before.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 12 years ago
            Mike every invention is a combination of known elements (rearranged). You cannot violate the conservation of matter and energy. A new invention is a new combination, but built on old things (existing).
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          • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
            Ah the radio. Truly disruptive. Side note - my dad is a big collector and historian of early Radios. I grew up crisscrossing tri-state region to attend auctions where he could purchase breadboards to consoles. Our house was decorated with vacuum tubes and horn speakers
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
        I've never heard the wanting to pay taxes from the founders. I am aware that property owners were the only ones to vote.
        Adam Smith was influential with our founders. How could you forget him?
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        • Posted by $ 12 years ago
          [Edit - Originally, I wrote: "The poll tax let merchants and others who did not own land pay to vote." It was a fact (or not) that I carried with me since AP History in high school. Browsing now has failed to find support for that. I do point the Hoover Institution article "The Colonial Roots of American Taxation" (here http://www.hoover.org/publications/polic...) which says in part:
          "In 1638, the General Court in Massachusetts required all freemen and non-freemen to support both the commonwealth and the church. Direct taxes took two forms: (1) a wealth tax and (2) a poll, or head tax, which in some instances evolved into or included an income tax.
          The wealth tax was based on what was known as the country “rate,” which amounted to a property tax. ... A second direct tax was the poll, or head, tax. The Massachusetts law of 1646 served as a model for the New England colonies. Every male 16 years and older, the year of registration for potential military service, was required to pay an annual tax of 1s. ..." So, another one bites the dust....]

          I only have an abridged "Wealth of Nations" and could not find the uniquely American concept of "making money qua creating wealth." I think that Smith accepted "wealth" as static and material. Ideas were not wealth to him. In Book II Chapter 2, he goes into detail on paper money in the colonies. His story is the same as Susanne's above. See also his statement that paper money - properly used - promotes industry. He says that when idle people spend paper money on foreign wine, they do nothing to increase production, but when artisans spend paper money on tools, they do. That flatly contradicts the Major Premise of the book. But it does reinforce the altruistic idea that consumption for pleasure is evil while working for others is good. Smith was a professor of moral philosophy; he was not an egoist.


          However, in Chapter 4 of Book I on The Origin of Money he is wrong. Now, understand that no one was right. From Aristotle until about 1955, everyone told the same story. In any case, in both citations, Adam Smith was being factual in reporting empirical observations. He was not so poetic as to identify the making of money as the creation of wealth.
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          • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
            On paper money comment, he is simply pointing to efficiencies -the difference between consumption and production -I do not read a moral statement there.
            1937 modern library, p.373-4
            "Someaddition in improvement to those machines and instruments which facilitate and abridge labors."
            Long winded way of saying invention.
            George Washington was the main driver behind theConstitutional Convention for inclusion of a patent system as key to the health of the new nation. The delegates all went to a demonstration of a newly invented steam powered ship to illustrate how the US could prosper quickly. In fact rights to inventions are the only enumerated right in the Original Constitution demonstrating uniquely that ideas can create wealth.
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            • Posted by $ 12 years ago
              I think we have been around this barn once before. As you know, the literal statement from I.8. is "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"

              Promoting progress in science and useful arts is all well, fine, and good, but we are still searching for an explicit statement in support of Ayn Rand's claim that "to make money" is (1) uniquely American (which I believe I estalished it is not) and (2) uniquely Americanly means "to create wealth" (which it may).
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              • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
                sorry-I was off of the "make money" thing early in the post. I am all about the "create wealth," which is how I interpreted the money speech.
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                • Posted by $ 12 years ago
                  I just checked HUMAN ACTION by von Mises: nothing about creating wealth.
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                  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
                    doesn't surprise me. textbooks on economics and the study of economics doesn't seem to concern itself with the creation of wealth. It's not that it doesn't exist. A Smith gave three ways to create wealth at a national level, the economic freedom indices sort of talk about economic growth. Mostly, economic texts concern themselves with banking, money and trade. This is a research area Objectivists should be jumping all over...
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago
    If my previous two comments didn't make it clear, I've a bellyfull of scumbags trying to run down the United States with "gotchas".

    The U.S. IS the highest achievement of civilization and individual liberty in the history of Mankind. It *did* create a unique way of thinking of individual achievement and of doing business.

    If you (anybody) are not willing to accept this fact, and you're not an American, please cease breathing. If you (anybody) are not willing to accept this fact and you are American, please surrender your citizenship and go someplace else, preferably Brad Pitt's Island at high tide... and cease breathing.

    You have nothing to contribute to my world.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 12 months ago
    A good read is Glyn Davies "A history Of Money." -- Posted by exindigo 1 day, 15 hours ago.
    "Hi, I suggest you read "Money Mischief" by Milton Friedman." -- Posted by Danno 1 day, 19 hours ago

    Davies, I know. The Friedman book is at both my city and university libraries, so I will check it out later. I am always interested in learning more.

    But I know a few things about this and most economists do not. (One who does is George Selgin who wrote about the Birmingham Buttonmakers and the Beginnings of Modern Coinage.) We do not have college curricula in numismatics. Many of us major in history, art history, or languages. Largely we are autodidacts. I do hold three certifications from the American Numismatic Association: Basic Numismatics, Grading U.S. Coins Today, and Detecting Altered and Counterfeit U.S. Coinage.

    My first literary award from the ANA was for an article on the origins of coinage. The nomination came from Elvira Clain-Stefanelli of the Smithsonian; and the article corrected the Encyclopedia Britannica. (I also had to win the support of Robert Hoge of the ANA Museum who convinced the editorial board that most of the standard references on their shelves were wrong: merchants did not invent coins.) My second literary award from the ANA was for a biography of Sir Isaac Newton's tenure as warden and master of the British Royal Mint. Other awards from other groups came for other works.

    The ANA also published articles from me on Buffalo Nickels, Peace Dollars, Cameo Proofs, and Proof Double Eagles. For seven years, I wrote the monthly "Internet Connections" column for The Numismatist. Some of my works are given as citations in Wikipedia articles. One was cited by Nobel laureate Robert Mundell.

    When it comes to money, I know what I am talking about.

    Most recently, I read "Debt: the First 5000 Years" by David Graeber. Although Prof. Graeber is an anthropologist, he is also a left-anarchist who is afraid of debt and money. That being as it may, his work is supported by current research. He supplies his sources. The take-away facts are: (1) Trade did not begin as calculated profit-making (2) Debt did not begin with money. (3) Money did not grow out of barter. (4) Gold and silver did not evolve from commodity money.

    And just to say, this fear of debt and money is not isolated to Marxists.The conservative and libertarian quest for 100% gold-backed banking and a gold-backed federal money supply are reflections of the same fears.

    In understanding the origins of monetary media, Menger and Mises did not improve on Marx. Even Hayek offered no empirical evidence for his "Denationalisation of Money." He only cited Rothbard's "What has Government Done to Our Money?" which only cited one academic paper from 1916, which itself was flawed by citing as "circulating" coins that we know were rarely seen: any active American coin collector could have provided a wealth of accurate empirical data.

    Numismatics: the Standard of Proof in Economics
    http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/2011/...
    Murray Rothbard: Fraud or Faker
    http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/2012/...
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  • -1
    Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago
    THIS is why I favor the United States building up its nuclear arsenal and destroying every other nation on the planet.

    Then we can sit back and say, "How's that revision go again?"
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