Ban cash, end boom and bust

Posted by gaiagal 8 years, 12 months ago to Economics
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  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What can I say? Here's what I posted on that page as one of the very few (so far) comments...
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    "And not long ago, the fact that college loan burdens were making savings and survival impossible? Maybe some of them figured out that loans are NOT the best way to save?

    Thanks, ABC, for a no-win scenario.

    Look, gang, if there's no GRAPH that shows both sides of the coin (pun intended) Versus Time... Versus GDP, years, average home price or Anything Else, you can never see if any of the disaster reporting is worth reading.

    Thanks, ABC, for .... nothing much."
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    South of the border and with rare exception cash is withdrawn by the ATM. Tellers accept deposits or payments for the most part. Some banks offer a choice of Pesos or Dollars from their machines. If you have an account in the bank the fee for using the ATM is zero.

    Typically one draws out their cross border transfer in pesos (fees from 17.4 to 68.4 pesos starting in the banks - two that low - and ending with the local version of 7-11, hotels etc. then deposits in the local account. There is/are daily limits at both ends. Another way is a limited use of paper checks maximum ten per day at $10,000 per check US monday through Friday for the real ricos. (rich folks). i imagine the home accounts in the US are watched and checked for deposits or something provable in tax paid funds. For those of us who went from middle class to lower class upon retirement and then went south to regain middle class status it's an OK system. Other than Bank Americas sleezy approach to wiping out your balance one way or the other and lack of customer service. Best two are Wells Fargo and IF you are retired military or US Government Anderson Federal Credit Union or AFCUdotcommo I spelled some of it wrong some right which charges zero for funds sent to you in other countries. there may be others.the main thing is never use machines which swallow your card completely for the transaction. Takes four to six weeks to get a new one and in some countries even longer. See Eye Banco is my recommendation of choice.just south of the border. For the rest of the world due diligence is a mighty good idea. Take more than one card to be on the safe side and have a way to hook up and transfer funds if you lose one.

    Now the last thing anyone presenting an electronic deduction to their accounts to Bank America will be honored and if you do'n't have sufficient funds they charge their account holder and then start adding huge weekly fees.

    Completely untrustworthy.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I can well understand any current touchiness around cash. I'm aware there are banks in the USA and Ireland that don't accept deposits or even mortgage payments in paper currency. In some other countries, large stores have self-service checkout areas where most machines are EFTPOS or credit card only, and the queues for accessing the machines which accept cash can get very long. This to me is a soft sleazy approach to trying to wipe out cash.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So does the pea under the walnut shells. Each time it moves it's devalued by a series of embedded taxes or Value Subtracted Tax. The sick part is Pelosillyni wants to add another one called - don't start laughing she said it I didn't - a value added tax. Must be what she's growing o that grape farm in Napa County. however to leave tongue in cheek humor behind. Each step of the way not only adds but as Circuit Guy stated ''if there were no gov't or taxes.'' And only replacement of the very fascist income tax for a preferably end user consumption tax controlled by the spender will do that. Along with a thirty plus percent decrease in the size of government''
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In that case my apologies and I''m on your side. But it's still of no value to me and anyone who wants to use my services can pay for it - in cash. Hard currencies preferred - Which doesn't necessarily exclude the US Dollar but I prefer hard currencies. however in re-reading the thread I can see why I was mistaken.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    WTF are you on about? I'm not advocating for any kind of cashless society. Where the hell did you get that idea from? In fact, I find the idea of eliminating cash an appalling violation of privacy.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Then it's of no value to me at all. Coupled with the failure rate of ATM's and other similar devices and the various fees for using them. Other than Amazon to support your point I'm in a primary cash market area and have yet to lose a card to a machine for something as simple as power failure during as transaction. Back up point the banks don't run the machines it's another company more often than not. Rare you can go inside and say the machine ate my card. Instead it's a three week wait or more. My last card which is causing cancellation of the account is now six and one half months and waiting....Your cashless society is full of holes for any practical use and it breeds a lack of customer service. especially from the issuing banks.Apparently they are training people to work for the government or vice versa. It's not the people in the bank where you do business it's the nameless faceless unaccountable people in South Dakota or where ever. not that the idea doesn't have merit - and make it easier for the government to control you that's a real plus - it is not practical at the present state of technology. And it limits you in where you can go in the world. sort of an electronic iron curtain.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It would certainly be of value to you if you had goods and services on the market, and a higher rate of circulation reflected in higher sales revenue to yourself. :D
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    He, he...we also used ours to pay down a credit card. That really drove them crazy, that and people putting the money into savings.
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  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In the business/corporate world, borrowing money enables business investment and expansion when the cost of the loan is less than the expected gain from the reinvestment or expansion.

    If the management is wrong in their assumptions or execution, yep... they can and do go down the tubes.

    As for personal credit for 'immediate gratification,' yep, that's proven to be the downfall of many individuals who don't understand some basic concepts of money and savings.

    So my wife and I use our points-collecting Visa cards for virtually all 'cash purchases,' which average $3000-5000 per month. And it's paid off automatically every month out of our checking account, which is a flow-through conduit for our IRA withdrawals and Social Security checks.

    About sixty years ago, my mom drilled into my head the concept of "avoid all debt" and it's worked beautifully for me. And still, a home equity line of credit loan bought our newest car and we can afford the interest payments on the loan plus extra pay-down on principle.

    Bank Savings?! Back some time in the 1950s or 1960s, mom moved all her cash out of our local NJ bank where it was earning about 1%/yr and sent it to a Southern California bank that paid about 2.5%. Buy Local, when it's to your own detriment?! Don't be silly!

    Most folks born in the past 20-30 years have no concept of money, economics or savings.

    oh, ps... When markets are distorted by Anything that makes a commodity too inexpensive, Demand grows higher than a balanced market would achieve.

    Think about that when someone says that student loans for college have 'created unbearable debt' for the graduates. There IS a connection there for folks bright enough to see it, or have it taught to them by parents or educators.
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  • Posted by Wonky 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I didn't think of borrowing with a plan to utilize the funds to eventually produce more than enough to pay off what you borrowed as consumption.

    I think of consumption in this context as taking that 18 month same-as-cash Home Depot credit card offer to install new hardwood floors when you already have $30k in credit card debt and no savings or easily liquefiable investments - not because you want to sell the house for a greater profit, but just because you "want" hardwood floors.

    If I want hardwood floors just for the sake of having them, I'd have the cash, but still use the same-as-cash deal so that I could leave the cash invested for as long as possible and pay off the card before any interest accumulated.

    I don't think consumer debt is bad in and of itself - in fact, I love to open credit cards with bonus cash-back offers ($300 back after the first $1000 charged), spend the money required to get the bonus cash (on things I would have bought anyway), pay off the cards & close the accounts. I made $2500 last year without paying a penny in interest doing exactly that (I didn't pay income taxes on it either).

    Chase has a "Slate" card available that has no balance transfer fee and 0% for a period. I opened one of those, transferred the entire available balance to an Amex card with a 0 balance, requested the refund from Amex, invested the money, and paid off & closed the Chase card before the intro period was over. Effectively 0% interest to invest on margin.

    I also keep an Amex that gives 3% back on all purchases from grocery stores & pay the balance every month.

    These are all just tactics in my personal crusade against the financial institutions that want me to be trapped paying 21% interest because I don't produce enough to pay for what I consume.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People will find something to use, even if holding gold, silver, or foreign money are banned. Maybe it'll be something like Bitcoin.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That was true before the Federal Reserve. Now the Fed encourages banks to deposit their "excess" cash with it instead of lending. This is one of several reasons the depression that began in 2008 is still going on.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I used mine to pay off a credit card. Step two involved scissors. Step three a trip to the bank to cancel the account. Woooooshhh big weight off my shoulders. then I moved where the loss of buying power was offset by a more user friendly price structure. What need of credit? comment. I hated getting that refund. It represents an overpayment at best with no interest and returned in devalued dollars. Lose Lose Lose. I love the idiots that say I didn't pay taxes I got a refund. Unless it was an Unearned Income Welfare Check in which case we are the idiots.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think he's against borrowing for consumption. He did not say if he's against borrowing for investment. Also, he did not condemn any form of equity funding.
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  • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    under your plan, most start-ups would never have gotten off the ground. Borrowing is risky, but big ideas , which are disruptive would die if no one ever had that as part of their business plan
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "My only economic rule is not to consume more than I produce. According to http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (if I'm interpreting it correctly), the average citizen's personal debt is $52,796 for a total of almost $17 trillion. "
    Yes. Staggering and true.

    "Spending on credit benefits those from whom you borrow the money"
    Yes.

    "The value of money is destroyed when you consume more than you produce because eventually you will go bankrupt and your debts will be passed on to more responsible consumers. "
    Yes, if I understand correctly. If the borrowing continues at this rate, the gov't struggles to service the debt, and the national bank is tempted to expand the money supply and pay back the debt in post-inflation dollars. That has not happened yet, but it's a real risk. My guess is when rates rise, the gov't will put a band-aid on the problem with spending cuts and increased taxes that keep the budget balanced. The Fed will allow some inflation, but it won't allow inflation to spike too quickly or to exceed 8%. I find it frustrating we have to wait for such an unpleasant scenario to solve the problem.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    Eliminate cash and you eliminate the average worker's ability to control his own earnings.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The best way to "stimulate" the economy is to let it alone. You are right to be offended and they (the govt) appears to be too stupid to understand the basic laws of economics.
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  • Posted by Wonky 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My only economic rule is not to consume more than I produce. According to http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (if I'm interpreting it correctly), the average citizen's personal debt is $52,796 for a total of almost $17 trillion.

    Spending on credit benefits those from whom you borrow the money that you didn't produce in order to consume what you didn't produce, and also causes you to sacrifice a portion of your future productivity in future interest payments to the lender.

    The value of money is destroyed when you consume more than you produce because eventually you will go bankrupt and your debts will be passed on to more responsible consumers.

    What is the flaw in my reasoning?
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  • Posted by eddieh 8 years, 11 months ago
    A year ago or so I read an article that mentioned that a "shadow economy" was helping to keep America afloat. It was referring to cash transactions such as baby sitting , house painting, collecting metals etc. The claim was that the IRS losing billions of in revenue. The only reason to eliminate cash is the same reason to call in gold.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    We benefit from the increased production. People trade money when people produce something they want, so the more times it trades hands the better. This would be true if there were no gov't or taxes and we traded gold and silver coins. The more value we make for one another, the faster those coins move about.
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