Even Kids Know

Posted by mminnick 12 years ago to Education
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My granddaughter was over at the house thisafternoon. She was busy writing a letter to two teachers that had visited her class earlier in the day. I told her it was nice that she was writing a thank you note to them. She became indignent (as only a 10 year old young lady can) and replied" "It is not a thank you note. It is an apology. All of the class has to write one. Two of her class mates had acted rudely and disrupted the presentation the visiting teachers were giving.
Her teacher instructed the entire class to write an apology to the teachers. She very politely pointed out that only two of her classmates had acted poorly and asked why the entire class had to write an apology letter. The teacher replied that it was "nice" to point out the fault of others and all needed to apologize because the entire class was present. My grand daughter also mentioned that several other classmates asked the same question.
She asked me if that was correct and the "right thing to do". I told her no it was not correct and it was not the "right thing to do". I told her that the innocent should not be punished with the guilty. Only those misbehaving should be punished. The ones behaving should not have to write the apology note.
If a ten year okd (admitted very bright :) ) can see the inequity in the situation, one would think a teacher could also.
Each person is responsible for their actions, even fifth graders. They know right from wrong, good from bad. School should engourge this rather than teach collective/group guilt.


All Comments

  • Posted by $ winterwind 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Coming from a [private] school built on the concept on individualized education, I'm interested to hear that some schools are embracing the idea.
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I just couldn't stand it, I had to write the letter.

    Dear Visiting teachers,

    Thank you for your presentation to our class today on the life and customs of the ancient Mayans. I am interested in history and how other people live. I have a friend who says “history is gossip”. What is your opinion on that?

    The purpose of this letter is not, unfortunately, only to compliment you on an interesting presentation. I am writing this letter as an assignment from my teacher, who has required everyone in the class to apologize for the behavior and Scott and Dylan, the 2 boys who kept rudely interrupting you. I think she should have sent them to the Dean’s office the first time they interrupted you, but she doesn’t believe in that. I am sorry your presentation was interrupted; please do not think that the opinion of 2 self-important morons is the opinion of the entire class.

    I would like to know, however, what you think about my teacher’s requirement that every student present write a letter of apology to you, even if they were interested like I was. Do you think it’s fair to punish everyone because 2 people behaved rudely?

    Thank you for your time,

    mminnick’s granddaughter
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I got a bunch of kids asking ME to teach THEM penmanship by teaching some of them calligraphy. If the student doesn not want to learn, you can make him memorize and repeat, but you cannot make him learn.
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    but...but...WHY DOES EVERY STUDENT HAVE TO LEARN EXACTLY THE SAME THING, EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED?
    Individualized education! no "bunches' of ANYthing! kids. older kids [like 32 yrs old]. stuff. transportation. the question "What if....?"
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Hello marysnow,
    Like our Constitution and what has happened to original intent... when the progressives get a hold of it they abuse and twist it. I do not trust them. The track record is plain.
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    If by "assisting" you mean keeping track of grades and records and helping keep attendance, etc, I agree.

    If you mean in any way shape or form a kid touches a computer without severe damage to his fingertips.... I disagree.
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  • Posted by marysnow 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The computers can be quite effective at assisting the "Thousands of post menopausal nuns in a bad mood."
    It's also interesting that there are some not public schools that still teach this way....learn the basics or suffer the consequences.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    " (Many schools still teach handwriting but do not teach keyboarding.)"

    HOORAY FOR THOSE SCHOOLS.

    And it's called "penmanship".

    "Read Tony Wagner's book Creating Innovators for some good ideas on how to educate your children"

    Better idea; pick up a textbook from before 1913.
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  • Posted by marysnow 12 years ago
    Our public education system is beyond repair in many ways. It teaches group think, and practices social promotion; while fighting critical changes such as Teacher Evaluation, and Common Core Standards. (Many schools still teach handwriting but do not teach keyboarding.)

    After 4 years of working within the public education system, I can see that change must come through disruptive innovations. I strongly suggest avoiding public schools altogether, using either home schools, online schools, or private schools. No matter what school you choose monitor what is taught very carefully.

    Read Tony Wagner's book Creating Innovators for some good ideas on how to educate your children.

    Consider Ayn Rands "Open Letter to Boris Spassky" (Philosophy: Who Needs It). If you have children, one of the most important things you can do is to ensure they are not a product of public education. If you choose not to educate your children in the public education system you will be considered elitist and experience many types of social pressure. If you send your children to public school, it's very possible that they will embrace group think, and support socialism. You may think they will grow out of this once they have a job and start paying taxes...some will, many will not.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Spread the blame far enough, and there are no conspirators left to shoot in the forehead with a squirrel.

    I was with you right up until, "The Common Core Standards are far from perfect".

    The solution to our problem is very, very simple.

    What we need (make a list; SMOFs always make lists):

    Millions of McGuffy readers/writers/math equivalents from the turn of the 20th century.

    Millions of flexible but not easily destructible rulers.

    Thousands of post menopausal nuns in a bad mood.

    Sit the kids down, make them memorize and learn... or bleed; their choice.

    When are you people (and by you people in this context I mean anyone who doesn't agree with me on this) going to figure out that the problem was caused by us screwing with the educational system, so the most obvious solution, at least short-term, is to return to the methods and philosophies we were using prior to our screwing the system up?

    I can hear the counter-arguments now.... "but... but... COMPUTERS!"
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  • Posted by marysnow 12 years ago in reply to this comment.

    Posted by marysnow 0 minutes ago
    The Common Core Standards are far from perfect. The original idea was to define what should be taught at each grade level in core subjects to create a base of shared common knowledge. This would make it easier on students who change schools. As the Common Core Standards were defined and considered by the states for adoption, it was decided that each state could make some modifications to them.

    To really understand the original intent of the Common Core Standards read Cultural Literacy by E. D. Hirsch 1987, and The Schools We Need and Why We Don't have Them by E. D. Hirsch, 1996. The Common Core Standards were originally based on the Core Knowledge Curriculum. See the website http://www.coreknowledge.org/.

    The Common Core Standards are not a curriculum. School districts, and sometimes even schools select the curriculum to implement them. In our district, the elementary schools could not agree on the Math curriculum to adopt (these are the math book publishers like Pearson, Envision, Saxon etc) so the district allowed the elementary schools to select different publishers.

    What concerns me the most is the interpretation of "teaching to mastery". The Common Core Standards include "teaching to mastery". "Teaching to mastery" means if you don't master the content you don't move on to the next level. The alternative is "teaching for exposure". In "teaching for exposure" if you don't get it this year you will still move on to the next level where you will be exposed to it again (usually next year). This is how some students reach high school unable to read or to do basic arithmetic.

    As Common Core is implemented schools and districts interpret "teaching to mastery" in their own way. If schools are really teaching to mastery then some students would be held back in certain subjects or grades. Parents should see some evidence of this happening. This does not happen often in New Mexico. This year the New Mexico Legislature will again debate the law to hold back students in the third grade who cannot read at grade level (social promotion). For the last two years the legislature has been unable to reach agreement on this topic. (In the meantime the reported statistic is that nearly half of NM third grade students cannot read at grade level.)

    What's interesting is technology enables students to progress based on mastery by subject rather than age level cohort, but the public education system has found it difficult to embrace this concept. A few charter schools have had success implementing this concept.
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  • Posted by 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    amagi, Standards are one thing. everybody must be measured and should all be measured against an accepted one. I'm not saying Common Core is the correct standard far from it. From what I've heard and read, Common Core is not an acceptable curriculum for any school anywhere, but I have not personally reviewed it, so base my opinion on hearsay. the source is good, a teacher in a school system adopting Common Core.
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  • Posted by amagi 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    marysnow, are you telling us that Common Core
    Standards are something we ought to fight for ?
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  • Posted by $ jlc 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The difference between B5 and most other shows is that it is (a) about something, and (b) about something that I believe in.

    I enjoyed re-watching the clip. Tx.

    Jan
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years ago
    Hey, here's a thought...
    Post the address where the "apology" letters are to be mailed here, so we all can add our apologies to the pile. After all, we're all here as guilty of her classmates' rude behavior as your granddaughter is...
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  • Posted by Kaeaea 12 years ago
    Kids work on reason until it is taught out of them by history teachers and math teachers. Logic should be taught in grade school, kids would understand it. I "invented" socialism when I was six years old - and knew within a couple of hours, and a discussion with my Dad, how ridiculous it was.
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  • Posted by billpuzz 12 years ago
    LOVE THIS. Just read this to my wife and we discussed the many cases of this sort we witnessed when kids and as adults.
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  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks to both of you, but why would I get a -1 anyway? I think it's persecution. Or paranoia. One of those two.
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