Wynand beat Toohey by crashing his empire; Toohey needed Wynand's empire, but Wynand didn't. Toohey was the parasite. Wynand was the creator, even though he didn't know it until the end.

I wish I understood what you are saying. Rand is a hypocrite ? In what way? I value your thought processes.

Cranedragon: I enjoyed your commentary. Well said. Thank you.

also, I live with dale. trust me, you need to be carrying for those conversations

tanxs philosopher

I love you
we were skipping down alleys

And I am not bored. Darn. I would have enjoyed reading/commenting on this thread but today was busy.

Jan

oh she whines and she gives in and she sluts around to feel.

thank you

Good JC see my post, philosophercat above on Ideal

Some people are their souls, they are self created in thought and action to be their values.
Its an interesting idea, gosh what if people actually had free will and shaped their lives to be their souls?

Good, See my "philosophercat post above

"Ideal" refers to two concepts of "The Ideal" Plato's concept of a non-existent perfection and the way people treat what they call their ideals. Are they real or are they "ideal". Kay, Kira, Dominique, and Dagny each search for and struggle to achieve the ideal value in man and the world they deserve. Rand shows with each novel a more sophisticated and philosophical understanding of the issues in achieving ones highest values, each person's ideal. In a shorthand, how do you keep the ideal out of the trash?
Kay is the one who tests what people mean when they say she represents the ideal they never knew could exist. The last words of Kay and Johnnie, his "that you exist"..hers, "that it exists." are the core of Rand and her heroines and their magnificence. Johnnie acts to achieve his highest value, his ideal, and that she could help him do it Kay says "was the kindest thing I have ever done."
.
"To forgive wrongs
Darker than death or night
To defy power which
hope thinks infinite
Neither to change nor falter nor repent.
This is alone
To be good great and joyous
Beautiful and Free
Life joy empire and Victory.

Shelly or Tennyson, Prometheus UnBound. I hope from faulty memory.

Whiny rich girl? When does she whine? On the one hand she's condemned as an ice queen, impervious, and on the other she's called whiny and spoiled? Does she behave badly to the people who work for her, her father's housekeeper in the Connecticut house? Does she get drunk and behave vulgarly, just because she's rich?

Before you condemn Dominique, please go back and reread her testimony at the Stoddard Trial. It's only three pages, not nearly the commitment required to read thru John Galt's speech, but her passion is in every line. Her blazing fury against a world that rose up to condemn and destroy to sublime beauty and life-affirming creation that the Stoddard Temple was, before it became the Hopton Stoddard Home for Subnormal Children, is worth savoring. And then read her paragraph after Wynand's capitulation: "I have never been able to enjoy it before, the sight of the earth, it's such a great background, but it has no meaning except as a background, and I thought of those who owned it and then it hurt me too much. I can love it now. They don't own it. They own nothing. They've never won. I have seen the life of Gail Wynand, and now I know. One cannot hate the earth in their name. The earth is beautiful. And it is a background, but not theirs."

And the final image of her, on the outside hoist of the Wynand Building under construction -- that's one hell of a dame. I'd like to fine a friend or three like her in my life.

If she had been born in 1985, she'd probably be running a start-up in Silicon Valley, or producing challenging indie films. For someone born probably in what -- 1910? -- she's quite something. Roark clearly felt that he'd found his match.

I agree. wanting others to get there, jc :)

Khalling: When you state, "Idiots can be attracted to heroes and not get it." Without knowing Rand's reasoning in the initial development of these two characters (Dominique-Roark) I would venture to say that the attraction between the two might have begun without foundation but attraction between the sexes is exceedingly strong and powerful. Most of us do not immediately understand the underlying basis. However, as the novel develops, Dominique shows stamina and fortitude and declares her dedication to Roark beyond a doubt giving the reasons she admires in his character and at the same time she was also terrified of what his high ideals would do to him, how the methods and powers of the society she traveled in would destroy him. She risked her life for him in the bombing of his building, almost bleeding to death. While she is an eccentric being she definitely loved Roark to abnegation of herself. Roark recognized her high ideals, her refusal to accept the flawed, her pain and self destruction because she could not find the heroic in mankind that should have been there, should have been visible and applied in man's work...

I can forgive her shortcomings because I chose to see the greatness represented in her person. Out of her drastic self-effacing choices she found her way to the truth.

I don't mind if A.R. doesn't mind.

Herb: Good comment, especially the,"...engraved invitation". I will surely use this phrase in the future if you don't mind.

can you comment more on the post, please?

Dr Laura is delusional on many levels. but I do not see the comparison to Dominique

idiots can be attracted to heroes and not get it. why her? what did she accomplish for him to love her?

When I read Fountainhead it was my first endeavor into Rand's writings. It is still today my favorite. I did admire Dominique. I admit that her methods were unusual, however, I found that Rand connected the dots in such a way as to give credibility to her character. Yes, she came from privilege and yes she was surrounded by high society and she rebelled against the hypocrisy. In several occasions her discussions, her responses/writings for the newspaper were brilliant. By seemingly agreeing to what you knew she despised she, with derision and caustic sarcasm, revealed the absurdity of the thought or action. It made me think of Marc Anthony's speech at the death of Caesar. She was an enigma yet she had a definite objective, either to discover in another the absolute indivisible integrity and the courage to stand against and face the absurdity, the degradation, the compromising of oneself into oblivion that was the modus operandi for the movers and shakers of society OR be destroyed by these very means.

She was an extremist in all things and she was attracted to an absolute heroic person in Roark.
Even in love she could not break him, could not defeat his principles. I think Rand was brilliant in her juxtaposition of characters in Fountainhead.
I agree with cranedragon's comments the heroes and the villains are both strong and formidable individuals. In Fountainhead you have to be willing to delve into the realm of idealism, as such, Rand's refrain returns- "...not with the way things are but the way they should be".

Thanks, you obviously read what Rand wrote. It was a pleasure to read your thoughts. It is very informative to read IDEAL and see the character development of an "IDEAL" woman across the novels.

Interesting.

Dominique is a diamond in the rough. She understands that talent and even genius is crushed or taken advantage of and feels helpless to do anything about it. Hence, she acts like the ice queen until she meets Roark. She recognizes that he may be a great man, but she doesn't feel as if she can be disappointed by having an idol with clay feet. As a result she tries to distance herself from him even as she forces interaction with him.. However, Roark recognizes the truth buried under the iceberg, as well as the magnetism enveloping him from her when they interact. The famous "rape" scene was explained cogently by A.R. herself. "It was rape by engraved invitation."