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Open Objectivism

Posted by DavidKelley 8 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
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For reference:
Fact and Value: https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
The Leonard Peikoff/David Kelley intellectual exchange: https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
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As the person who first raised the issue of tolerance and of open vs. closed Objectivism—and the person whose position has been under consideration in recent posts—I’d like first of all to thank Walter Donway for his articulate explanation and defense of the position we share. To weigh in with additional thoughts:

1. Historically, the debate began in 1989 when Peter Schwartz attacked me for speaking to a libertarian organization, the Laissez-Farire Books supper club. I responded with a 4-page open letter ( http://atlassociety.org/about-us/abou... ) mailed (in pre-internet days) to my Objectivist colleagues, including Schwartz and Peikoff among others. I advocated tolerance in the service of the open expansion of Objectivism:

“There is much we can learn from others if we are willing to listen. And even where they are wrong, we strengthen the foundations of our own beliefs—the accuracy and range of our observations, the validity of our concepts, the rigor of our arguments—by the effort to prove why they are wrong.

“That’s why every age of reason has welcomed diversity and debate. The great minds of the Enlightenment declared war on the entire apparatus of intolerance: the obsession with official or authorized doctrine, the concepts of heresy and blasphemy, the party lines and intellectual xenophobia, the militant hostility among rival sects, the constant schisms and breaks, the character assassination of those who fall from grace. These are the techniques of irrational philosophies, such as Christianity or Marxism, and may well have been vital to their success. But they have no place in a philosophy of reason.

Ayn Rand left us a magnificent system of ideas. But it is not a closed system. It is a powerful engine of integration. Let us not starve it of fuel by shutting our minds to what is good in other approaches. Let us test our ideas in open debate. If we are right, we have nothing to fear; if we are wrong, we have something to learn. Above all, let us encourage independent thought among ourselves. Let us welcome dissent, and the restless ways of the explorers among us. Nine out of ten new ideas will be mistakes, but the tenth will let in the light.”

That excerpt should make it clear that toleration of and engagement with those we disagree with is not the primary issue. The primary issue is whether Objectivism is open or closed as a philosophical system. If it’s open, we benefit from engagement. If closed, why bother? The open character is the founding principle of The Atlas Society, and we have pursued it many ways. An example is my work on benevolence as a virtue, which, as Walter explains, is grounded in basic values of Objectivism. That said, we are rigorous about what work we endorse: it must be consistent with established Objectivist principles, as hundreds of pages of exposition on our website will attest.

2. To my knowledge, this was the first time any Objectivist thinker has raised the issue of open vs. closed. I thought the open character was obvious; I thought my Objectivist colleagues were pursuing new Objectivist insights. “Fact and Value” was Peikoff’s response, saying that the philosophy was closed. I replied to his essay at length in The Contested Legacy pf Ayn Rand, esp. Chap 5. ( http://atlassociety.org/about-us/abou... ) No principal in Peikoff’s camp has responded to my arguments in 25 years. Meanwhile, I gave a talk on the issues in 2010, “Truth and Toleration Twenty Years Later” ( http://atlassociety.org/about-us/abou... ).

My friends in the Gulch, this is an important issue and well worth debating. Having been party to this argument for 25 years, I hope my writing here today provides some historical context for those pursuing the issue in earnest. I'll try to answer any questions you might have.


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  • Posted by ut91t05 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    but to judge and act accordingly is the very thing a jury does. Aren't legal concepts and morality linked.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Keeping her reputation and name is what she was doing. She had every right to insist when some tried to argue. You originally called not letting her name be used an "edict" that caused resentment. Ayn Rand never wanted a movement around her personally. Branden (and later other lieutenants) did have a reputation for demeaning people.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    ARI and Peter Schwartz don't need to be defended under the guise of any "sport without a purpose". You are smearing and falsely attacking ARI people as "dogmatist" (several times), "weird things", "Jehova's Witness", "Rand Witnesses", "follow the bible", "if Rand did not say it, then it is not right. If she did say it, it is right (even if she made a mistake)", "lovers of ARI shun nonbelievers", and "spend more time and energy maintaining that structure than in working toward its goals". And that is only from the last few posts.

    Your constant personal attacks are not "questioning a few points". Any normal person can see what you are doing and that it has no content. Calling you on this is and rejecting it for what it is is not "my, you sound hostile". The hostility is all yours.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The promotion of Objectivism as "open", including to "variations", and other disagreements, are different questions than the one about speaking at libertarian events. You would agree with "some of the libertarian viewpoints", too; the controversy on that front was over implying a sanction of radical libertarians (especially anarchists) opposed to Ayn Rand's philosophy and publicly attacking her for it over a long period of time. https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post... (David Kelley did not believe he was doing that but it's not the only controversy.)
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks -- I see now that it's a link to a pdf file within the main link and entitled as an "appendix", which turns out to mean the appendix in Truth and Toleration. That straightens out the confusion over what paper he was referring to.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, true judgment is not only handed down by a jury. Justice and judgment are moral concepts far broader than a legal system. Every individual has a moral responsibility to judge and act accordingly
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Laissez Fair Books was a New York City anarchist/libertarian book store, periodical, and social organization for radical anarchists, some of whom publicly attacked Ayn Rand for not being an anarchist and otherwise.

    LFB included books by Ayn Rand, along with fringe books cashing in on her name (most of which few have heard of) attacking her and her philosophy, Austrian economics, and classical liberalism back to the 19th century. But it was not just a book service for free market books carrying books that sold well (like Ayn Rand's). LFB had an ideological editorial policy of promoting all the "libertarian" books it could it find in the store front and in its periodical, emphasizing anarchism as the meaning of libertarian. The editor of the periodical was an anarchist whose attacks on Ayn Rand caused a major, diversionary controversy.

    Part of the problem with the libertarians, which for a while were dominated by anarchists, was their attempt to hijack Ayn Rand and others as really meaning anarchism and their a-philosophical radical politics, claiming her popular books as their major contemporary source. She rejected them as the "hippies of the right" half plagiarizing and half contradicting her ideas.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 2 months ago
    Taken in whole the comments clearly show why objectivism or libertarianism will never be a major force. It cannot defend it's existence within itself with out squabbling and quibbling. Very sad since there is no other philosophy secular or religious standing between intellectual freedom and self imposed capitulation.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The primary issue is not "whether Objectivism is open or closed" with "open" required to "benefit from engagement" and you have not explained why you agree with that or what any of it has to do with a "human" problem of "inconstancy" and "straying", or the subsequent unrelated "observations". Please just state in plain English what you were trying to say.
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  • Posted by marshafamilaroenright 8 years, 2 months ago
    Regarding whether Objectivism is "complete," and therefore "closed," Rand said "Philosophy is the science that studies the fundamental aspects of the nature of existence." Can a science ever be "complete," i.e. every aspect known? No because there are always new things to discover about the universe. Also, I know she said that there was more work to be done in Objectivism - can't find the quote at the moment. For example, there is no theory of propositions.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks, Tom. I appreciate the compliment: I do think. As a philosopher, my interest is in expanding our understanding of the world, human nature, and the value implications for personal life and the good society. When I think I have discovered something new and solid, I publish. But to get there, I always start with what Ayn wrote. I stand on the shoulders of a giant.

    At the same time, I don't automatically dismiss those "in the other camp," despite our conflicts. ARI has recruited and trained some very good scholars. To be sure, a lot of that work is what I would call "Rand scholarship"--interpreting her works, the way ancient philosophers try to interpret Aristotle's writings. That's not my interest; my interest is in the substantive philosophical issues about reason, logic, knowledge, ethics, etc. But even here, I would say that "the other side" has produced good new work, e.g., Logical Leap (Peikoff and Harriman), How We Know (Binswanger).

    That said, open Objectivists recognize good work no matter who does it. I think this is a matter of intellectual honesty. I would never allow my organization to shove good work down the memory hole. I wish I could say the same for the other camp....
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  • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks! Sounds like you were involved before my time (I graduated college in 1971). Let's talk some time.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Herb, thanks so much. I'm sorry to hear about your experience in Detroit, though I'm not surprised. But what a way to build a movement :). Hope life in FL is good....
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That sounds rather messianic, where Ayn Rand is no longer an innovative philosopher but a religious messiah with a claim of infallibility. If Objectivism is not a religion with affirmation of faiths, but a philosophy based on rational analysis of a real world, the real world is the final arbiter.

    I am a computer programmer. For years I have told people I work with that the computer is the final authority on how it works. If Bill Gates says the computer does X and it actually does Y, then Y is the proper answer. The real world is the final arbiter.
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  • Posted by editormichael 8 years, 2 months ago
    Peikoff and Schwarz are cultists, Randroids, and they embarrass real thinkers.
    Yes, one's mind can be too far open, and thus allow in all kinds of nonsense, as today's "liberals" do.
    But a closed mind is one sign of cultism, and fear of engagement shows a lack of confidence in one's position.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Recall that Rand forbade or tried to not have her followers call themselves Objectivists. To stay out of trouble you had to call yourself a student of Objecivism. Subscribers would lose their subscriptions for questioning Objectivism. Same goes for any religion where you can be punished for questioning beliefs or doing prohibited practices. From my experience with a Catholic woman who divorced to keep from being killed, she was forbidden to take communion. Other belief systems will punish for infractions such as not wearing the correct underwear, smoking, or having a spouse who is an atheist. If I recall right, Rothbard had to leave Rand's circle because he would not have his wife become an atheist, although his anarcho-capitalism probably did not help his cause. Of coarse a person can go his own way, though that is not always without feeling greatly alienated.
    Your quoted passage is just the point, Peikoff tried to do that and Kelley called him on his nonsense.
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    Posted by wiggys 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    the man has spent 25 years trying to get his point across and will spend the rest of his life at it with the same lack of accomplishment.
    As for my personal life what if you knew that my wife appreciated a slap now and then. I guess personal attacks outside of the subject is acceptable to you. Your wife could only wish to have received the gifts I have bestowed on my wife.
    PS he has no defense as I see it, he leaves it to you, a joke.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The first section is an observation that the acquisition of knowledge is key to altering one's future actions. The second section is an observation that in many cases, change is not effected simply due to acquisition of knowledge but only after effort/work to employ that knowledge consistently and until mental patterns permanently change. The example given in support of this observation regarded dieting. There are surely others.

    Read the comment for what it is. Don't take apart pieces of my argument and try to invent claims on my behalf or misconstrue them to mean anything other than what they are.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    To me, you seem to be engaging in a sport without purpose. What is your goal? To protect ARI or Schwartz? In any event, I was not smearing anyone. What I said was: "I had some friends who are ARI members, and, just as the Jehovah’s Witnesses shun those who question anything, they no longer talk to me because I questioned a few points about Rand." And, in my experience, the lovers of ARI do shun nonbelievers --- even Libertarians, with whom they have much in political common.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No one is advocating an "Objectivist Ten Commandments" or "dogma". It's good that you got kicked out of the church -- and that you didn't spend the rest of your life feeling wounded about what groups you were accepted by. But what do you mean by "absolute principles"? Are you equating principles with dogma like Pragmatism does?
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