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Open Objectivism

Posted by DavidKelley 8 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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For reference:
Fact and Value: https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
The Leonard Peikoff/David Kelley intellectual exchange: https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
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As the person who first raised the issue of tolerance and of open vs. closed Objectivism—and the person whose position has been under consideration in recent posts—I’d like first of all to thank Walter Donway for his articulate explanation and defense of the position we share. To weigh in with additional thoughts:

1. Historically, the debate began in 1989 when Peter Schwartz attacked me for speaking to a libertarian organization, the Laissez-Farire Books supper club. I responded with a 4-page open letter ( http://atlassociety.org/about-us/abou... ) mailed (in pre-internet days) to my Objectivist colleagues, including Schwartz and Peikoff among others. I advocated tolerance in the service of the open expansion of Objectivism:

“There is much we can learn from others if we are willing to listen. And even where they are wrong, we strengthen the foundations of our own beliefs—the accuracy and range of our observations, the validity of our concepts, the rigor of our arguments—by the effort to prove why they are wrong.

“That’s why every age of reason has welcomed diversity and debate. The great minds of the Enlightenment declared war on the entire apparatus of intolerance: the obsession with official or authorized doctrine, the concepts of heresy and blasphemy, the party lines and intellectual xenophobia, the militant hostility among rival sects, the constant schisms and breaks, the character assassination of those who fall from grace. These are the techniques of irrational philosophies, such as Christianity or Marxism, and may well have been vital to their success. But they have no place in a philosophy of reason.

Ayn Rand left us a magnificent system of ideas. But it is not a closed system. It is a powerful engine of integration. Let us not starve it of fuel by shutting our minds to what is good in other approaches. Let us test our ideas in open debate. If we are right, we have nothing to fear; if we are wrong, we have something to learn. Above all, let us encourage independent thought among ourselves. Let us welcome dissent, and the restless ways of the explorers among us. Nine out of ten new ideas will be mistakes, but the tenth will let in the light.”

That excerpt should make it clear that toleration of and engagement with those we disagree with is not the primary issue. The primary issue is whether Objectivism is open or closed as a philosophical system. If it’s open, we benefit from engagement. If closed, why bother? The open character is the founding principle of The Atlas Society, and we have pursued it many ways. An example is my work on benevolence as a virtue, which, as Walter explains, is grounded in basic values of Objectivism. That said, we are rigorous about what work we endorse: it must be consistent with established Objectivist principles, as hundreds of pages of exposition on our website will attest.

2. To my knowledge, this was the first time any Objectivist thinker has raised the issue of open vs. closed. I thought the open character was obvious; I thought my Objectivist colleagues were pursuing new Objectivist insights. “Fact and Value” was Peikoff’s response, saying that the philosophy was closed. I replied to his essay at length in The Contested Legacy pf Ayn Rand, esp. Chap 5. ( http://atlassociety.org/about-us/abou... ) No principal in Peikoff’s camp has responded to my arguments in 25 years. Meanwhile, I gave a talk on the issues in 2010, “Truth and Toleration Twenty Years Later” ( http://atlassociety.org/about-us/abou... ).

My friends in the Gulch, this is an important issue and well worth debating. Having been party to this argument for 25 years, I hope my writing here today provides some historical context for those pursuing the issue in earnest. I'll try to answer any questions you might have.


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  • 15
    Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago
    What makes Objectivism such an admirable philosophy is its logical construction. All philosophies go into a crucible of international debate. Few, if any, emerge from that crucible. I think that Objectivism is one such philosophy that can take the fire of the crucible. Shielding Objectivism from debate does Objectivism a disservice. It can withstand the scrutiny.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
      Well said. Truth is truth. Deception comes through repetition of falsehood (Goebbels) which can only be combated by repetition of truth and a thorough, open discussion.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 8 months ago
    I find this issue to be interesting but a bit puzzling. You cannot stop people from disagreeing, disputing, evolving. The Catholic Church cannot stop declared Catholics from taking birth control. How does anyone say, with a straight face, the sentence, "You are all a bunch of strong-minded free thinkers and I forbid you to come up with new ideas. If you do so, I will say Right Out Loud that you may not call yourself an Objectivist or take the name of the Rand in vain."

    No one has the ability to do this.

    Jan
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 8 months ago
      Well said, Jan. Bravo. It is ever thus in the battle of ideas. Any deviance, real or imagined. provokes counterattacks. The cornered rats fight like demons, not just against the ideas themselves but against their human hosts.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 8 months ago
      Recall that Rand forbade or tried to not have her followers call themselves Objectivists. To stay out of trouble you had to call yourself a student of Objecivism. Subscribers would lose their subscriptions for questioning Objectivism. Same goes for any religion where you can be punished for questioning beliefs or doing prohibited practices. From my experience with a Catholic woman who divorced to keep from being killed, she was forbidden to take communion. Other belief systems will punish for infractions such as not wearing the correct underwear, smoking, or having a spouse who is an atheist. If I recall right, Rothbard had to leave Rand's circle because he would not have his wife become an atheist, although his anarcho-capitalism probably did not help his cause. Of coarse a person can go his own way, though that is not always without feeling greatly alienated.
      Your quoted passage is just the point, Peikoff tried to do that and Kelley called him on his nonsense.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 8 months ago
    Dr. Kelly; I'm personally glad to see you commenting and posting on this issue. But it seems to me that so much of the conversation over the last few days here on the site has been much more about the 'who, what, when,...' of the argument, rather than about the meat of the issue itself.

    Personal Opinion: The philosophy of Objectivism in order to 'live and breath' has to be 'open' to discovery, development, and further integration and exposition into the current day-to-day lives of America. How does that happen? Is that an Intellectual driven task? Does openness to debate and discussion with anyone with other ideas really help or does it provide audiences and a level of credibility for arguments against Obectivism? What's your perception of the proposed AS TV series in relation to the above goal?
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    • 11
      Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      Thanks, Zenphamy. In answer to one of your questions, regarding current day-to-day lives, I wrote in Chap 5 of Contested Legacy:
      "Objectivism is more than a theoretical structure; it is a philosophy to live by. Over time, the accumulated experience of those who practice it will produce a moral tradition, a body of reflection about the issues that arise in applying the principles."
      I think this prediction is being confirmed. I know many business and life coaches, educators, and others who are dealing with living the principles; TAS has published articles and talks on the subject (as has ARI). I am optimistic about the growth of insights and tools for living as an Objectivist--more optimistic about that, frankly, than about political change.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 8 months ago
    Thank you Dr. Kelley,

    Below is my experience for why I think it is important that all rational lines of inquiry have to be open.

    In my exploration of economics I found that the economists (not Rand's ideas) I generally agreed with had failed to answer some important questions and were inconsistent with Rand. I began to be bored and unsatisfied with reading endless articles and books that repeated the same arguments. My first hint about how to solve these problems in economics came from a book "Farewell to Alms" that is not objectivist and challenged some of the standard line of free market economists like Friedman, Hayek, Mises and others.

    In the end I have drawn on a number of economists ideas that did not spend all their time preaching the same arguments for free markets and capitalism (echo chamber). I have also been attacked for not just supporting the orthodoxy of for instance "Austrian Economics." I have even suggested that Malthus and the environmentalist have some valid points that need to be addressed and I do not think were addressed adequately by mainstream free market economics. I think that I have now answered them and in the process found some important insights into economics.

    This would not have happened if I thought Rand and free market economics were "perfect" or closed.
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  • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 8 months ago
    Thank you for posting this info for consideration. I agree this is worth debating and I am learning much. I have often thought of Objectivism to be quite easy to understand but finding it to be very complicated at the same time.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
    Thank you, David.
    It may be the first time to your knowledge, but I can assure you, that in the hinterlands, that discussion has been going on for40 years at the minimum. As an ancient Objectivist what I call the Piekoff attitude has caused divisiveness. In my case, I was in Michigan's Detroit area when we got the message that our "Ayn Rand Society" could no longer use her name. Those questioning this edict were threatened to be dismissed. In any case, it was the first time I heard about Libertarianism. I don't know if the debates are still ongoing as I moved to Florida 24 years ago.
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    • Posted by Ed75 8 years, 8 months ago
      I agree with David. Having been an admirer of AR for most of my life, and having read almost everything in that regard, I never joined any of the organizations due to the fact that they (the organizations) seemed "closed'. During her lectures at the Ford Hall Forum in Boston, which I attended, she had little tolerance for "alternative" viewpoints. I understand that position (her having "birthed the baby" so to speak) but rational thought requires that other view points be considered. ie; open system.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 8 months ago
        In Rand's defense she had so many questions that were not really questions (attacks where the person was not interested in dialog) that she probably became hyper sensitive. We have all dealt with this on a smaller scale when talking to socialists and religionists. I have dealt with it when talking to libertarians and Austrians. I admit that because of my frustration I have sometimes thought a comment/response/question was just snipping (bomb throwing) when it was honest dialog.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      Herb, thanks so much. I'm sorry to hear about your experience in Detroit, though I'm not surprised. But what a way to build a movement :). Hope life in FL is good....
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
        So powerful was her hold on the group, however, that very few changed. It was the first time in my experience that such amazing transformations occurred in people from reading a book.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      Ayn Rand was emphatic about the integrity of her ideas. She did not want them misrepresented using her name and did not want people stating or implying that they spoke for her. She had every right to do that. The ones who loudly objected to that tended to be the most obnoxious offenders, often being unable to distinguish between her ideas and their own misformulations and contradictions mixing them with something else.
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      • Posted by khalling 8 years, 8 months ago
        Yet "The Logical Leap" by David Harriman, forward by Dr. Peikoff -

        "In attacking McCaskey, Leonard Peikoff defends The Logical Leap’s theory of induction as part of Objectivism, despite the fact that it contains many innovations that Ayn Rand herself never addressed."-William R. Thomas

        http://atlassociety.org/commentary/co...

        From Amazon on TLL, "Ayn Rand presented her revolutionary theory of concepts in her book Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. As Dr. Peikoff subsequently explored the concept of induction, he sought out David Harriman, a physicist who had taught philosophy, for his expert knowledge of the scientific discovery process."
        If that is not a statement in favor of "open" I don't know what is. Perhaps only Peikoff can make innovation with respect to Objectivism. and when he dies-then what? Will he name a successor? that's weird
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
        No one would argue that A.R. had every right to protect the integrity of her name and reputation. However, we were in constant contact with her people through Branden and others. I think what shocked us the most was the dismissive way it was handled. After all, we were a very active group, having made arrangements for Branden lectures and an appearance on TV as well as sponsoring the recorded lectures on Objectivism. I guess we expected a courtesy that wasn't forthcoming.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
          Keeping her reputation and name is what she was doing. She had every right to insist when some tried to argue. You originally called not letting her name be used an "edict" that caused resentment. Ayn Rand never wanted a movement around her personally. Branden (and later other lieutenants) did have a reputation for demeaning people.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 8 months ago
    I stopped my subscription to the Intellectual Activist when Schwartz’ hit piece came out. In the early 1990s I (being the innocent person I am) was unaware of the great divide in Objectivism between dogma and advancement. Shermer hit it right with the chapter “Unlikeliest Cult of All” in his book “Why People Believe Weird Things.”

    Pity, but it seems most organizations start, grow, then inside fighting stymies them, and then they fail.

    To me, Schwartz is a dogmatist, and that is the exact opposite of the heros of Ayn Rand --- or any other thinker. I see he is now a “Distinguished Fellow, Ayn Rand Institute.” That’s nice, I suppose, and it fits in that ARI appears to me to be dogmatic: If Rand did not say it, then it is not right. If she did say it, it is right (even if she made a mistake). I think they should rename themselves into Rand Witnesses and follow the teachings of Rand (right or wrong) the way Jehovah’s Witnesses follow their bible.

    I had some friends who are ARI members, and, just as the Jehovah’s Witnesses shun those who question anything, they no longer talk to me because I questioned a few points about Rand.

    The late Sam Steiger was a former six-term US Congressman from my state of Arizona. He ran for governor of Arizona on the Libertarian ticket in, I think, 1984. He was a genuine gentleman rancher and had the "people's touch." At a talk given July 31, 1982, at The Nevada Libertarian Party “Candidate's Convention” in Las Vegas, Nevada, he suggested what he modestly called:

    Steiger’s Law: People involved in a structure spend more time and energy maintaining that structure than in working toward its goals.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      Esceptico: "ARI appears to me to be dogmatic: If Rand did not say it, then it is not right. If she did say it, it is right." Esceptico constantly attacks and misrepresents in this forum, and that is only one example. This isn't a matter of "questioning a few points".
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      • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 8 months ago
        My, you sound hostile. Disagreeing with one’s views is not the same as being against the people that hold those views. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and are not due the same respect and are subject to judgment.

        I don't usually engage in too much back-and-forth blogging, since this rarely results in more light than heat. I prefer to wag more, bark less.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
          The misrepresentation quoted was from you post. It isn't "questioning a few points". Smearing people as "Jehova's witnesses" is not "disagreeing with one's views" in accordance with an alleged "right to respect".
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          • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 8 months ago
            To me, you seem to be engaging in a sport without purpose. What is your goal? To protect ARI or Schwartz? In any event, I was not smearing anyone. What I said was: "I had some friends who are ARI members, and, just as the Jehovah’s Witnesses shun those who question anything, they no longer talk to me because I questioned a few points about Rand." And, in my experience, the lovers of ARI do shun nonbelievers --- even Libertarians, with whom they have much in political common.
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
              ARI and Peter Schwartz don't need to be defended under the guise of any "sport without a purpose". You are smearing and falsely attacking ARI people as "dogmatist" (several times), "weird things", "Jehova's Witness", "Rand Witnesses", "follow the bible", "if Rand did not say it, then it is not right. If she did say it, it is right (even if she made a mistake)", "lovers of ARI shun nonbelievers", and "spend more time and energy maintaining that structure than in working toward its goals". And that is only from the last few posts.

              Your constant personal attacks are not "questioning a few points". Any normal person can see what you are doing and that it has no content. Calling you on this is and rejecting it for what it is is not "my, you sound hostile". The hostility is all yours.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
    "The primary issue is whether Objectivism is open or closed as a philosophical system. If it’s open, we benefit from engagement."

    Precisely. If something is true, every time we revisit it it's truth comes out and reconfirms to us it's veracity. It is not that the nature of the thing has changed, it is because we as humans are so inconstant that we must be reminded lest we stray.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      Knowledge is never closed until the last human in the universe is gone, and no one has said otherwise. The issue is attributing ideas to Ayn Rand that were not hers. I don't know what your problems with "inconstancy" and "straying" are.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
        Show me a single person on this earth who started with a perfect understanding of the universe and you can show me someone who has never changed their mind and never needs to. The rest of us must adjust the way we think and act as we learn.

        As a secondary matter, there is the tendency to go back to the comfortable or historical when confronted with new information because it is comfortable. It is a part of human nature that very few overcome without constant reinforcement of correct principle. That re-wiring of the brain doesn't happen instantly - it takes conscious and continuous effort to become ingrained within us. It's the reason there are so many self-help books, diet fads, and fashions and why people constantly flit from one to another. Ask anyone who has lost significant weight and kept it off, however, and they will readily acknowledge that they did so only by changing their attitudes and behaviors toward food. So must we examine our attitudes and behaviors toward endeavors of the mind.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
          Who ever said any "person on this earth started with a perfect understanding of the universe"? What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with dieting.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
            The first section is an observation that the acquisition of knowledge is key to altering one's future actions. The second section is an observation that in many cases, change is not effected simply due to acquisition of knowledge but only after effort/work to employ that knowledge consistently and until mental patterns permanently change. The example given in support of this observation regarded dieting. There are surely others.

            Read the comment for what it is. Don't take apart pieces of my argument and try to invent claims on my behalf or misconstrue them to mean anything other than what they are.
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
              The primary issue is not "whether Objectivism is open or closed" with "open" required to "benefit from engagement" and you have not explained why you agree with that or what any of it has to do with a "human" problem of "inconstancy" and "straying", or the subsequent unrelated "observations". Please just state in plain English what you were trying to say.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
                Would you agree or not agree that human beings change the things they do based on knowledge they acquire that shows them a better way to get what they want? Constancy is doing something the same way every time. Humans don't do things the same way every time because they learn better ways to do things. They change and adapt. They improve their efficiency. Therefore humans are by definition inconstant - especially in the long run but also in the short-term.

                Change is also difficult, however. Change requires effort - especially because there is always a psychological change which accompanies a procedural or technical change. Good business managers and change consultants have known this for decades. It's one reason why so many software projects fail: they address the technical side of the change, but insufficiently address the psychological side of the change. It's a concept in the business world known as "buy-in" and if your users and line managers don't buy in (or psychologically invest) in the change, until they do they are going to fight the changes. When enough people fight the changes to a software system - or fail to buy-in - the system will eventually fail, and usually not because it lacked merit.

                Q: Why don't we as humans simply just accept that when our IT people tell us an upgrade or new system is a good thing for us?
                A: Because we are comfortable with how we have been doing things and have developed a mindset that complements those methods.

                To expand, that mindset is not just a psychological thing, it is also a physical path of networking of the neurons in the brain. It is literally our internal wiring. Can the wiring be changed? Yes, but the longer someone has been doing something, the more difficult it is to effect change. The old axiom "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is based on this observation. While not 100% accurate, the amount of effort required to re-write old pathways with new ones is roughly analogous to the amount of time we spent using those old pathways. Habits are a powerful thing and are reflective of neural pathways exercised until those actions, etc., are literally ingrained in our minds.

                So if habitual actions are that difficult to change, isn't it amazing that people can change at all? Quite frankly, yes. Motivation, obviously, must be a powerful thing - powerful enough to cause us to exercise/work until change happens. The motivation ultimately must be personal gain or improvement to be truly effective, because change only happens at a personal level. That's why monetary impulses can be highly motivating. It's why the grocery stores have all those impulse-buy items right at the checkout counter: they are playing on the stimulus-response of short-term gain.

                Impetus for change can also be derived from the perception of a future gain or improvement. These are the most difficult changes to effect because the effort put forth does not necessarily generate a gain in the near-term. Smoking cessation projects qualify here, as it may take an individual several years on nicotine patches or gum before they finally give up cigarettes and override the habit of having something wedged between the fore- and middle fingers. Weight loss programs face a similar challenge. For long-term changes to habits, therefore, there must be a constant reminder that the work we do now is to effect a change that may only fully manifest itself in the future, or that our efforts at every day change effect such a small alteration to the pathways of the brain that this ever-so-gradual change is imperceptible except when viewed from the long-term.

                When we are talking psychological or ideological change, we are talking long-term change - not something that happens at the snap of fingers. The metaphorical "lightbulb" moment only applies to the sudden understanding one gains with insight into the nature of the personal gain to be had by change - it unfortunately provides no more than a mere spark towards effecting the actual change. Thus constant reinforcement from external sources (repetition, revisiting things we already know) is not wasted effort at all. It is an effort towards strengthening and reinforcing those neural pathways through constant practice and exercise.

                What happens when we don't use those pathways? Just like volatile RAM in a computer, it may get over-written with new pathways. Our behaviors change and we stray from what we once did.
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  • Posted by $ austexk72 8 years, 8 months ago
    Good thinking and writing, David. Having known and worked with Miss Rand and the "inner circle" during the '60s in Manhattan, I know first hand both the positives and negatives of her Objectivist movement. You and the Atlas Society represent the positives that will long endure after all the vicious negatives have crumbled away.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      Thanks! Sounds like you were involved before my time (I graduated college in 1971). Let's talk some time.
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      • Posted by GaltsGulch 8 years, 8 months ago
        Hello David. I've removed your phone number from your comment as publicly posting personal information in the Gulch is not permitted. Please refer to the Gulch Code of Conduct for more information: https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/faq#...

        Please feel free to send your phone number to austexk72 in a private message. To send a private message, click on the member's username (e.g. "austek72") and then click on the "Message" button located directly underneath the member's profile picture.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 8 months ago
    I have found that any time I come upon a body of knowledge which is considered closed, I have to consider it as religion. Even some branches of mathematics, such as the classification of finite simple groups finished in 2008, should not be considered closed, otherwise it is like accepting religious nonsense. The proofs are long and can still have subtle little holes in them and will be repeated far into the future as taught to grad students.
    Always add a question mark to knowledge that you think to be a closed subject. I find that beliefs that I considered knowledge for decades sometimes have to be reconsidered and changed to be consistent with objective reality. Similarly, philosophies have to be considered as open systems and if religions were to be considered open then it would be possible for them to become philosophies for those who look for facts and ultimately for truths about existence.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 8 months ago
    People have their reasons for clinging to dogmatic belief. I guess I was "corrupted" at the age of 12 when I first read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason." My introduction to rational thought regarding absolutist principles got me kicked out of the Baptist church.

    I think I may have first read Atlas Shrugged earlier than almost anyone in this forum. The lesson I took away from Rand's book was that rational, fact-based decisions lead naturally to a more productive, fulfilling life. Those seeking a new Objectivist Ten Commandments to live by seem to be supplanting one form of dogma for another.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      No one is advocating an "Objectivist Ten Commandments" or "dogma". It's good that you got kicked out of the church -- and that you didn't spend the rest of your life feeling wounded about what groups you were accepted by. But what do you mean by "absolute principles"? Are you equating principles with dogma like Pragmatism does?
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 8 months ago
        I was merely encouraging the open rather than closed form of Objectivist thinking. Rigid adherence to principle is still dogma, if it takes one beyond the simple concept of basing choices on reason and fact.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years, 8 months ago
    thank you David...the atmosphere back then in objectivist circles was oppressive...open discussion and the growth of objectivism was dying...we are where we are today thanks to you....
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 8 years, 8 months ago
    Thank you David. What I see as a difference is that you think. It seems that people in the other camp want a closed system so they do not have to think; just regurgitate what Rand said and wrote. As far as I have seen, nothing new ever comes out of people in the closed system - and they are happy with that - as they believe there is nothing new to learn.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      Thanks, Tom. I appreciate the compliment: I do think. As a philosopher, my interest is in expanding our understanding of the world, human nature, and the value implications for personal life and the good society. When I think I have discovered something new and solid, I publish. But to get there, I always start with what Ayn wrote. I stand on the shoulders of a giant.

      At the same time, I don't automatically dismiss those "in the other camp," despite our conflicts. ARI has recruited and trained some very good scholars. To be sure, a lot of that work is what I would call "Rand scholarship"--interpreting her works, the way ancient philosophers try to interpret Aristotle's writings. That's not my interest; my interest is in the substantive philosophical issues about reason, logic, knowledge, ethics, etc. But even here, I would say that "the other side" has produced good new work, e.g., Logical Leap (Peikoff and Harriman), How We Know (Binswanger).

      That said, open Objectivists recognize good work no matter who does it. I think this is a matter of intellectual honesty. I would never allow my organization to shove good work down the memory hole. I wish I could say the same for the other camp....
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      Distinguishing what Ayn Rand wrote on philosophy or endorsed as her philosophy from everything else, whether or not consistent with it, is not a desire to "not have to think". Such sweeping emotional pronouncements of strident, personal accusations and smearing misrepresentation is bizarre.

      Regardless of discovering or learning new principles, simply applying known principles takes a great deal of thought. No one stopped thinking when Ayn Rand died. Her death was not a "moratorium on brains" and was not proclaimed as that by anyone.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 8 months ago
    I listened to one of the talks and hope to listen to the other one tomorrow. I found it interesting. I am surprised at the amount of politics among Objectivists. I don't mean that to be critical. I may have had an unrealistic idea of Objectivism overcoming human foibles. I like that they (in this case Dr. Kelly) are addressing the issue head on and pointing out that the average non-philosopher just wants to learn something and doesn't care about the politics.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 8 months ago
    I agree with David Kelley on this 100%. I re-read the exchange between Kelley and Peikoff many times and always reaching the same conclusion.

    Ayn Rand would be spinning in her grave if she knew a bunch of secondhanders are not thinking for themselves but instead quoting her or everything she ever said anything about, whether she was speaking with philosophical rigor at the time or not. Instead of taking on the most central duty of objectivist ethics, thinking, they make objectivism and all or nothing closed system and act as if that closed system is more important than comprehending reality for oneself and acting on that comprehension.
    Objectivism is a philosophy of rationality and of fully rational self interest. That is by its nature not closed. Especially if it is to be a living philosophy and way of life rather than a memetic mausoleum.
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    • Posted by freetrader 8 years, 5 months ago
      I'd argue Ayn Rand layed a bomb in Atlas Shrugged exactly because she knew the second handers would be along - and they have yet to discover it, because being second handers, they don't think for themselves.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago
    There are several comments in this and other recent threads about the history of Peikoff and Kelley. While I lean toward Kelley's side, a number of defenders of Objectivism as defined by Rand have been downvoted multiple times. The downvoting is not helping. Objectivism deserves its strict adherents in much the same way that the U.S. Constitution does. Objectivism calls for a life of non-contradiction. If you think that the Constitution should be strictly interpreted, then you should treat Objectivism the same way. I have checked my premise, and while I agree with much of Objectivism, I have no right or intention to call myself an Objectivist.
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    • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 8 months ago
      Curious, isn't there a difference in the Constitution, since it is a legal document that has a process for changing it and Objectivism, which is a philosophy not a legal document? The Constitution should be strictly adhered to its intent and only changed as defined whereas a philosophy should be able to adapt to new discoveries as long as those discoveries lead to a better more clearly defined philosophy. Thoughts??

      I agree, much of the down voting does not make for a civil discussion and is likely counter productive. I think we see the same in politics today.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 8 months ago
    Dear David,

    What is ironic is that Peikoff's jealous guardianship of Objectivism has driven people away from Objectivism and into libertarian circles.
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  • Posted by marshafamilaroenright 8 years, 8 months ago
    Regarding whether Objectivism is "complete," and therefore "closed," Rand said "Philosophy is the science that studies the fundamental aspects of the nature of existence." Can a science ever be "complete," i.e. every aspect known? No because there are always new things to discover about the universe. Also, I know she said that there was more work to be done in Objectivism - can't find the quote at the moment. For example, there is no theory of propositions.
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  • Posted by editormichael 8 years, 8 months ago
    Peikoff and Schwarz are cultists, Randroids, and they embarrass real thinkers.
    Yes, one's mind can be too far open, and thus allow in all kinds of nonsense, as today's "liberals" do.
    But a closed mind is one sign of cultism, and fear of engagement shows a lack of confidence in one's position.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
    There was a group of people who were visited with a set of rules to follow. They did so without question especially were certain acts were demanded. Another group much the same followed and the two quarreled. Do you think of Communism and Naziism at this moment. I was thinking of 'closed' minds. The labels are immatrerial.

    Objectivism's main attraction is it frees the mind. but demands the price of honesty as a payment. Then assigns the harshest judge to rule. Thus ends Diogenes search.
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  • Posted by ut91t05 8 years, 8 months ago
    Question: What am I Missing? What is not compatible between Objectivism and a Laissez - faire book group or any libertarian group in general.
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    • Posted by $ Snezzy 8 years, 8 months ago
      What you are missing is a piece of historical perspective. During Rand's lifetime many hangers-on tried to create their own interpretations of Objectivism. Rand resisted nearly all of them. Some wanted to graft in some religion. Some wanted to establish a political movement.

      Of the latter, several times they lay in wait for her at her Ford Hall Forum talks, pouncing during the question period: "Miss Rand, why do you not support the Libertarian Party, which is so obviously in line with your principles?"

      Rand had studied the writings and speeches of Libertarians, I'm sure, and knew that the Libertarians borrowed from her "as convenient" to support their own flavor of anarchy or socialism or free-wheeling flights of fancy. The ill-fated Republic of Minerva was but one of these adventures. I was involved with some people producing a totally unauthorized film of Anthem.

      Rand rejected ALL of these, referring in public to "Leebertairian Heepies" and castigating the film project in private with the words, "I'LL SUE YOU!"

      To this day there are those who staunchly continue to defend Rand from what they see as the very same crowd of intellectual thieves.

      True to Rand's prediction, the Libertarian Party has had little discernible positive impact (from an Objectivist perspective) on American politics. Rand said it was too early, in answer to the question, "Is Atlas Shrugging?" She also said, if I remember correctly, that American politics had no working philosophy other than pragmatism. She of course rejected pragmatism. I believe that she regarded the Libertarians as pragmatists.

      So there you have it.

      As far as I can tell, David Kelley's position suffers especially from being regarded as an alternative to Leonard Peikoff's. Peikoff does have, if I understand correctly, the authority to present and publish additional works by Rand that did not appear in her lifetime. He also cannot avoid speaking as to what does and does not constitute Objectivism. He once said that if one wants to set up a philosophy that borrows Rand's ideas, please do not call it Objectivism, but instead call it Gloopism. (He made up that word.)

      Kelley has, as do all of us, not only the right but the moral necessity of interpreting what Rand meant in her works. If Objectivism is to have any purpose at all we must use it. None of us, not Peikoff, not Kelley, and certainly not I, has any "Papal" authority to speak for Rand. All of us are capable of error, and of recognizing and correcting errors, our own and others'. But we can and MUST present our own views.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      Laissez Fair Books was a New York City anarchist/libertarian book store, periodical, and social organization for radical anarchists, some of whom publicly attacked Ayn Rand for not being an anarchist and otherwise.

      LFB included books by Ayn Rand, along with fringe books cashing in on her name (most of which few have heard of) attacking her and her philosophy, Austrian economics, and classical liberalism back to the 19th century. But it was not just a book service for free market books carrying books that sold well (like Ayn Rand's). LFB had an ideological editorial policy of promoting all the "libertarian" books it could it find in the store front and in its periodical, emphasizing anarchism as the meaning of libertarian. The editor of the periodical was an anarchist whose attacks on Ayn Rand caused a major, diversionary controversy.

      Part of the problem with the libertarians, which for a while were dominated by anarchists, was their attempt to hijack Ayn Rand and others as really meaning anarchism and their a-philosophical radical politics, claiming her popular books as their major contemporary source. She rejected them as the "hippies of the right" half plagiarizing and half contradicting her ideas.
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  • Posted by freetrader 8 years, 5 months ago
    I think Randian Objectivism should be considered a closed system, while objectivism (which isn't a term she invented and which the actual etymology implies much if not all her philosophy) as open -- as reality, reason, self interest, capitalism etc aren't patentable business methods, having been around a good while. The distinction should be similar to little l libertarianism and the big L Libertarianisn (which in my mind isn't very libertarian lately, having begun to abandon it's non-initiation of force ideals - but that's a topic for a different forum).
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
    Taken in whole the comments clearly show why objectivism or libertarianism will never be a major force. It cannot defend it's existence within itself with out squabbling and quibbling. Very sad since there is no other philosophy secular or religious standing between intellectual freedom and self imposed capitulation.
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