Hi. My name is... Robert Smith

Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago to The Gulch: Introductions
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I'm very happy to have landed in the Gulch... I hope to get some insights for when I watch and discuss the movie.

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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    By not having a military to fund they can subsidize their peoples health care. It was only within the last decade they were permitted to build their own military again. I wouldn't say your dense, just committed to a certain line of thought. Now, don't go saying we should eliminate the military to care for more moochers please.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    disingenuous at best. if your agenda was natural rights...well this conversation would have gone differently. You want to empower one group at the expense of another. The only way that can happen is through govt intervention. You and I both know it. i respond to your comments. Particularly here
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    AJA: "for 50 + years we provided their defense...

    I know sometimes folks accuse me of being a little dense, however...

    Please explain to be how the cost of defense in Japan contributed to better and reduced health care?

    I'm just not able to make the connection.

    Now, the carrier from Faux news: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/06/......

    Last I heard helicopters were aircraft. And, it's still a very big boat.

    Rob
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  • -1
    Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Oh khalling... Please don't tell me what I think. What gives you that privilege anywhere, particularly here?

    Now to address the specific: "why is it you think you have a right to tell others what they can do with their money, time, property and labor?"

    I'm advocating no such thing. The union and the corporation (both groups of people) can negotiate. I don't advocate where it comes out.\

    Rob
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    for 50 + years we provided their defense...when was the aircraft carrier built? Thats a ton of money to redirect elsewhere.

    If we could repair every ailment with 100% certainly then your premise would have weight. A doctor can still do his very best, using everything at his disposal to save someone and a patient can still die.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Rozar: "Exactly, your expounding that their system is better because it helps more people."

    Not only better health care but less expensive.

    BTW, Doctors are ALREADY forced to work for below what there might be a "market value" for their services. Insurance companies set rates so the fat cats can have their limos. AND the stockholders, my my, the stockholders.

    And when an insurance companies' portfolio slumps up go the rates.

    And look at how the insurance companies "protect" doctors from mal practice! If we had universal health care those costs would be taken out of the hands of fat cat insurance companies and put directly into medical care. If a doctor has truly screwed up an investigation should be held to determine the future of prospects.

    BTW, if the patient dies should the doctor be paid? It certainly is a failure as I see it if they are charging for it.

    Rob
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Rozar says: "You have no right to medicine, housing or jobs or anything else."

    Oh (giggle giggle) it's so much fun using right wing arguments...

    Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    Now, if one follows the "logic" of anti abortion folks... Well, you get the idea.

    But also, people die without health care. The best example is diabetes where with early treatment folks can live a long and productive life. Without treatment parts start to get cut off and people go blind.

    Besides, it's generally far more economical to treat things early.

    So, even though I imagine most folks around here would be pro-choice in the abortion issue as they are in so many other issues, I think it's time to consider: How can anyone claim to be "pro-life" and at the same time deny health care to another?

    And for the rest of your "argument" that folks aren't "entitled...."

    Consider that as a Nation we have built an excellent road system available to anyone rich or poor. Is that "socialism" or is simply making things easier for the worker to get to the job?

    Housing... A rare thing I agree with Joe Arpaio on is to use of tents and peanut and butter.

    And, a final note on health care...

    We have a wide variety of folks at work, some of who take the bus to work. Folks with TB can spread it, particularly after symptoms develop. However, without health care these folks with a horrible contagious disease continue to spread it because they don't get medical care early. If they happen to sit next to one of the folks at my workplace to takes the bus, and then I sit next to them at lunch... I'm optimistic that you can see it's in both your and my interest to see that everyone stays healthy.

    Rob
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    negotiation is a good thing. entry level workers don't get to as much. awwww, the real world. that's why one tries to move out of the entry level, low or no skilled position as quickly as they can. They do not try to embalm themselves to that position for the next 15 years. It's a position designed for teens and entry workers. Looked at the teen unemployment rate lately? Welfare and SNAP have driven the "living wage" to a point that teens are forced out of the economy. nothing's free. there is always an opportunity cost. actually Mcdonalds is one of those well run companies that encourage cross training and moving up quickly. if you've got a good work ethic you can get to asst manager quickly. don't like the wage there? get the training and move on!! McDonald's does not owe you a thing outside of what is contracted. Bottom lines. Investors invest for the future. Time, talent, money NOW for a future return. money NOW has a premium value. econ 101 much?
    why is it you think you have a right to tell others what they can do with their money, time, property and labor? How are you better than an apologist for a slave owner?
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly, your expounding that their system is better because it helps more people. The greatest good for the greatest number is the exact thing everyone here is opposed to. The world is a very harsh place and if someone creates ssomething that makes everyone's lives a little easier he should be rewarded for it, and the best way to determine how much he should be compensated is through the free market system, not some arbitrary and subjective amount that you or any one else in society comes up with.
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I just want to clarify that I am also an atheist and from that fact alone you should be able to deduce I'm very capable of tolerating others opinions on this site, I'm sure most of us in here do. Also you're trying to justify evil by comparing it to greater evil. It shouldn't work like that. I don't want to get into the specifics of your arguments because I think it will bog down the main point of our differences.

    I'm stating that by the mere fact that you were born does not grant you the right to anything more than your own mind. You have no right to medicine, housing or jobs or anything else. All of these things are someone else's property that they can do whatever with at the discretion of their mind, because it's theirs.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    On healthcare statistics and infant mortality rates, the US works with different criteria. No one would dispute that the US healthcare system has some of the best medical technology in the world. are we falling apart. Yes. due to socialism. due to stealing. If you create a drug only to be forced to sell it to other countries for less than your ROI or it will just be stolen, you will not recoup your value. The US citizens and corporations pay for that difference.
    It is morally dishonest for people pushing nationalized healthcare to purposely use those statistics above. and the damage that misinformation has and is causing-makes Enron scandals look like child's play.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    are you confusing right and wrong with punishment? there is most certainly right and wrong. Grey is a combination of black and white. Therefore black and white must exist! I love the way you worry about Enron but fail to acknowledge the much greater evils perpetuated by governments. ex: ponzi scheme of SS and Medicare, the wipe out of the middle class due Fed reserve counterfeiting. Solyndra, GE, auto bailouts, Fannie and Freddie, AIG, etc. all of these sanctioned by the US govt. On the MJ issue, it's a legal problem vs. moral. most in here, could care less what you put in your own body. there is right and wrong, but there are levels of the damage doing something wrong causes. Two different concepts. Black and white surely exists.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Hi AJA,

    You post: "Perhaps it has something to do with decades where Japan didn't have to pay for a military?"

    Was the news about Japan's new aircraft carrier wrong this week? Hmmmm, looks pretty real to me.

    Not really. Are you trying to relate the cost of their military to the cost of medical care? Seems like apples and oranges to me.

    The cost per person is less in Japan.

    MOF, we are on par with Cuba, usually around 19 or 20 when it comes to health care based upon longevity and infant birth statistics. Yet, Cuba's cost is far less than ours. Further the "socialized" medical care in the other top industrialized countries (better than America) also cost way less than our care.

    Our care has costs driven up by corporations committed to make money for the stockholders and little else.

    There are excellent examples of how treatment can be given without extreme costs to patients through the Catholic health care systems and the Shriners. Certainly our military doctors aren't driven by a profit motive.

    Rob
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Rozar says: "You wouldn't agree with that though right?"

    I find that you wouldn't tolerate something you personally disagree with on this forum. Ayn Rand herself was an atheist.

    More from Rozar: "When you deal in degrees of right and wrong you lose the ability to distribute justice equally, it becomes subjective."

    I do so love black and white extremists! Here we go...

    Sure there are most certainly degrees of right and wrong. 10 mph over the speed limit in a school zone or hospital zone is far more dangerous than ten mph over when it's in a 75 mph zone.

    Stealing bread because one is hungry is far different than Enron where stealing (enough that some folks killed themselves) wasn't the same thing as stealing bread.

    We most certainly need moderation, judgment, and common sense in our legal system.

    May I suggest that you watch Dr. Gupta Sunday evening on CNN? The degrees of difference between medical pot and other drugs is extreme (nobody ever overdosed on pot and died), but the penalties are among the most extreme.

    Rob
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't really want to go around defending CEO salaries either, which I wonder about the crony connections. However, if you are going to say there is no union cronyism-well...but I will say no baker should be paid 130K (in today's market)unless they're running their own company! I do not need tons of info to determine the market wage for an unskilled or low skilled worker. I don't want this false dichotomy set up in this discussion, which btw, should probably be it's own post. Because, the situation is removed from the free market. The government is involved with the largest corporations(McD is exempt from business mandates on Obamacare as an example) and with unions(legislation heavily supporting one group over another). Yet we say look how the free market works! It sucks! well, we are not in a free market and it sucks.
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  • -1
    Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Rocky_Road says: "Eastern Airlines is a prime example of this, and GM (and Dodge) would have done the same, except for the unnatural interference of the Federal government, spending taxpayers money without our authorization."

    Ford did OK, even with a boycott from the American Family Association. They have unions the same as GM. It appears that jet setting GM executives were themselves more into personal perks than actual negotiation like Ford was.

    More: "P.S. I submit that unions have NO LEGITIMATE PLACE in the government (read: public sector) workplace."

    Really... Why is "take it or leave it" treating someone with respect? I do agree that many municipalities are quite fair, but some are also rather bad. I am opposed to double dipping though.

    And finally: "The paycheck writers (the taxpayers) have no representation at the bargaining table, and are screwed from the get go. They have no chance of 'winning'.... "

    Sadly as long as we have a no compromise balls to the wall screamers like the Tea Party you are absolutely correct. Extremists rarely get the job done.

    Rob
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    From khalling: "We don't have all the info."

    Why do I see so many around here blaming the Union with little or no information, yet when it comes to management there isn't ever enough "information?"

    More: "When a company is facing bankruptcy and restructuring, it is a time of great turmoil within the organization. The role of the CEO,CFO, CTO, etc. is very stressful and demanding, Often, they no longer have their jobs after the re-structuring. A company will pay a high premium to get the most skilled CEOs at this particular point. I am not saying that corruption never happens, I am providing some objective support for compensation and parachutes."

    ROFL... A Golden Parachute for the
    pilot and crew as the plane goes into the ground. They get praised for a job well done and everyone else dies.

    That's the image I have for management that crashes a company into bankruptcy.

    Rob
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I am well aware of those claims and read them from another source. There is no good way to objectively address those claims. We don't have all the info. I was careful to say above that unions over-bloated pensions and wage levels were ONE factor. I have maintained that as long as unions respect property rights there may be a place for them.
    When a company is facing bankruptcy and restructuring, it is a time of great turmoil within the organization. The role of the CEO,CFO, CTO, etc. is very stressful and demanding, Often, they no longer have their jobs after the re-structuring. A company will pay a high premium to get the most skilled CEOs at this particular point. I am not saying that corruption never happens, I am providing some objective support for compensation and parachutes.
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  • -1
    Posted by Boborobdos 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, do blame the Union. But there is another side, maybe to your surprise. I found this headline but I was unable to access it directly because I'm not a subscriber. This is Dow Jones making the claims. I doubt you would trust Mother Jones.

    Any, here is what I found about Hostess...

    "Dow Jones Uncovers Alleged Looting At Hostess Amid Talk Of ‘Shared Sacrifice’ By Execs
    April 4, 2012
    DJ Creditors Say Hostess May Have 'Manipulated' Executive Pay

    By Rachel Feintzeig
    Of DOW JONES DAILY BANKRUPTCY REVIEW

    Rob
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm surprised people are so anti-union here. Anyone should have the right to form voluntary contracts with others if it serves their best interests. As long as the government isn't backing the unions or the corporations everything will come down to negotiations and the free market, as it should.
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes i do disagree with moderation. When debating morals you have to follow the moral all the way to its logical conclusion and most extreme example. If it can't stand up to that test than it isn't the right thing to do. When you deal in degrees of right and wrong you lose the ability to distribute justice equally, it becomes subjective. You wouldn't agree with that though right?
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  • Posted by Rocky_Road 12 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Good for them. White cell intuition at work....

    Corporate taxation is the antithesis to a robust economy, and hence, jobs.

    Corporate taxation in excess drives our producers offshore, along with the money blood flow.
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