You may be right but I may contend that is only because people have become conditioned to being governed. I often wonder what it was like when there was only a few people in a society. Has there always been some jerk that has to control others? My guess, that is more or less true likely in a very barbaric way. :)

Carol, there is nothing more than I would like is this guy impeached, really because he not qualified to be in this position in so many ways. I think what SLL is saying is there is no way it will happen so there is no sense waiting energy on it. As hard as that is, I have to agree. :)

I think you've touched on something important here SLL. Please don't take it that just because I posted a question that I believe that is the answer. I'm getting what I hoped to from this post and that is for people to have a discussion about freedom at another level. I like your thought of reformulation the question, but you just did that for me. Thanks for your contribution, and one more time for Golden Pinnacle.

You are confusing society with government, especially with the grossly overinflated government of today. You also may want to keep in mind the difference between the manmade and thus changeable and the given by reality.

Being in reality does not mean you are not free. Freedom with no context for any being at all (reality) is impossible and a floating abstraction.

Death is by definition truly death. IF it was "just a transition" then it is not in fact death. There is zero evidence of this so by what we do know it is not so. Asserting the positive otherwise requires evidence. It is not required for others to prove some universal negative.

Please don't use such sloppy ungrounded logic.

If you are dead there is no "yourself" to experience freedom or anything else of course. DUH.

I love your explanation, puzzlelady! freedom is the
state which we experience when we discard outside
boundaries, as Rand did, and think for ourselves,
IMHO. it is the route to invention, love, conviction
and peace. Never Give Up your inner freedom!!! -- j

And as things are going, not just in action, but in name.

There was a damned good reason the Founding Fathers did NOT want either a Monarch or a Regency for our government, and damned if they're not working their butts off to form one... and so far it has created EXACTLY what said Founding Fathers were determined not to let happen here.

Having US citizenship but living abroad is really not all that bad if we could simply get the US government to adopt a system of taxation based on location of source of income (or, at worst, residency) rather than citizenship (like the rest of the world already does). The problem with the US is that it wants to have its cake and eat it as well. It wants anyone who is a resident of the US to pay taxes, anyone who is a citizen to pay taxes as if they were resident in the US, every company to pay taxes to the US even if its tax residence is elsewhere, etc. Also the US should stop asking for foreign accounts. Once I make my money and move it offshore (after ALREADY paying taxes on it when I made it in the United States), it should be subject to the laws of the jurisdiction where I choose to move my money, not US law.

A book written by Harry Browne entitled "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World" has some interesting perspective on the question. In a word, the answer is "No". You can see pages from the book at http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-... . And for those who may become interested in buying the book, you can search for less expensive copies available elsewhere. But at least you can see some pages before buying.

The only way to rid yourself of government is to stop accepting the idea that you have the right to interfere in the personal choices of others and have all others agree to the same principle with regard to others (including you). If you die, you are not free. You are merely dead.

Government is only necessary when people refuse to police themselves. When everyone comes to agreement on a universal set of standards and actually lives by them (and teaches their children to live by them), we obviate the need for the coercive powers of government.

Not sure we will be able to get rid of all government, as there will still need to be people to make decisions regarding public works, etc.

Right now split time between maintenance tasks (straightening/correcting defects/repairs), heat treating metal (ended up larger part than I had imagined) and some manufacturing - functional appliances and tools, and "arms parts". I am working on a "dish" of my own design, trying to get better cyclonic airfeed to get more stable temps - will make a difference in the quality of my end product. Want to make a small gas unit to do very small parts (firing pins, index and pivot pins, and the like)...

I sure hope not. Of course freedom can be judged subjectively and one man's utopia is another's prison. Freedom is also relative and I would like to think we could regain more freedom if enough people demanded it. The question does remind me of what Franklin said: "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

As a long term goal, an inspiring standard to which the wise and virtuous may repair, I can think of nothing more fitting than "restore freedom." That is not short term logic, that is a long range goal. Impeaching Obama is far more short range, and what can be more short range than "the further existence of the world," without consideration of what that world will be?

Space Habs.
Looks like space access is about to be privatized, that should speed things up considerably.

50 to 100 years - tops.

Sea-Cities could be much sooner.

We just need to motate!
(My word for motivate and get moving.)

I don't think 2 more years of BO is a vision, but neither is getting rid of him. Read what I write.

(I would have given you a point just for "tocsin"...let alone for the rest of your excellent statement.)

Jan

If we make number 3 our goal, we have a shot at getting 1 and 2. As long as freedom is just empty rhetoric, mentioned in the same breath as protecting the social safety net and maintaining the police state in our war on terrorism, we can look forward to a succession of Obamas, Clintons, and Bushes until the whole shebang collapses. Freedom means freedom.

You own a forge? That is so cool. I have twice made brakedrum forges, but I do not have one now (the last one was in 1987). If I get to the point where I have 'enough bucks' and 'time hanging heavy on my hands' I may make/buy another forge. (Like I need Yet Another Hobby...!)

What do you make on it?

Jan

MarsFirst. You just need to warm it up, exchange the CO2 for O2 and N2, and increase the atmospheric density.

Or Venusia... Neutralize the Greenhouse gasses, remove the caustics and toxins from the atmosphere, and cool it down.

A leader who can lead, perhaps a president that can be presidential, freedom that is true freedom?