Depending on how busy the place is, I've seen managers come out and ask those types to take their conversations elsewhere. They aren't paying for anything, they don't tip worth keeping them as customers.

This is such an old post that I doubt anyone will be revisiting it anytime soon; however I felt compelled to comment anyway because a few thoughts came to mind and I wanted to share them. I am about a month behind in my Gulch reading, so I am rapidly trying to read all the previous comments and get back up to current status. So, after reading all of the posts regarding tipping or not tipping, I can see that there are many pros and cons and I can appreciate all sides. My first thought was about my son, who worked as a waiter at Cracker Barrel while he was in college. He was such a conscientious worker and tried very hard to please everyone. However, his biggest gripe was people who came to eat and then lingered over coffee and pie for another 2 hours gabbing and gossiping. There is no alcohol served, so sitting at a table getting free refills of coffee does nothing to add to the value of the tab. His tips were based on cost of meal, not time spent sitting at the table, so there were some nights he had 3 or 4 tables that spent hours there and he was lucky to make $30.00 in tips for the entire evening. I guess my point of this, and I'm sorry it's a bit off track from the original premise of whether to tip or not to tip, is to say that if you are dining in a restaraunt with servers, please be aware that they do need to turn the tables and be reasonable about the time you spend at their station without spending any money. If I'm out at one of my favorite spots, and I stay for a lengthy time, I calculate that fact into my tip and add extra to allow for the lost wage that the server could have made had I not monopolized their station. On another note, I once had some workers come to my home and replace flooring with tile and new carpets. I know I paid in advance a fair price for the basic materials and labor, but these guys went above and beyond in customer service and did such a great job that I felt their value to me was justified by an extra $50.00 tip for each worker. If any of you fellow Gulchers work in any kind of service industry let me know - I tip well.

I look on this, not as hypocrisy but as giving you a partial choice. Like various businesses in Berkeley that charge a "sliding scale" (read: you decide what to pay) so as not to exclude the poor.

I don't make a lot of money and I really appreciate the healthy fast food places where the structure makes it tipless and therefore cheaper. I find most all servers are more of a distraction to my enjoyment with comrades than an assistance. All this talk about how they expect tips turns me off really.

I don't see service as zero-sum either, but I don't think the waiter has that much control over it. Many places understaff, resulting in poor-to-fair service for everyone. Or they'll treat some of the wait staff badly (for instance, Denny's seems to allocate equal amounts of tips to all staff on their W-2's, even though some staff work a lot more hours than others; I see this in my tax practice). Both these problems are management's fault.

Yes, you can "send a message" by not tipping, but any place I would do that, I probably won't ever return to anyhow. That's what'll make them change if anything will.

I believe there is such a thing as a living wage, but that doesn't mean that anybody owes it to you.

I try to tip about as expected, if it's a place I expect to want to visit again. But if I don't, I don't bother. "You don't get credit for it."

Free market is great.

I pretty much count on other people being cheap. I'm an engineer, so I'm surrounded by cheapskates. Being economically generous and wearing bizarre socks make my office mates think I was dropped on my head as a child.

Nice thing about the free market is that each owner/manager can run things differently. It could easily be that some customers want to tip and others dont, so the customer base gets split but people are happy. My point is that with tipping, the average tip continues to rise as customers try to gain the advantage with the servers relative to other customers. In my lifetime its already gone from 10% to 20% or you are thought of as a skinflint.

I am dino.
Hear me roar!

Blarman:
Having begun the majority of my experience with dining in Italy, I would say that it is a whole different ball game...
First, dining, whether at lunch (2-3 hour affair) or dinner (3 hours+) you have the right and are expected to be occupying your table for the entirety of the event. That is not so in the majority of the establishments in the U.S.

That being said, if you are actually buying that space, service and food and have opted to "grace" a restaurant with your presence for the duration of that event, then you are treated as commander and chief of that table and as their guest.

You are catered to and doted on and the server follows your cues... you are takative tonight, they engage in conversation. You are there for business, no friendly banter that interrupts, etc.

The servers are professionals and take pride in their work. They all started out as apprentices and worked their way into their primary position. I can return to restaurants and find the same waiter that I had 25 years ago. Great feeling. Instead, on an average, a server in America is in a transitory position while they support themselves to achieve entirely different goals outside of the restaurant business. This shows in many ways.

While in Italy, like many European countries, a fixed percent is always charged (usually 15%) and it is always declared on the menu. Even so you would leave a "token" amount on the table for the server, let's say $10.00 for a normal dinner, not special event or party, where you were dining in two or three and a $20 if four people and so on. (Do realize I am talking about at least the normal 4 courses plus wine).

I have never felt "abused" in Italy for this system. Usually because I had professional service that contained pride and dignity.

I tend to follow here what is already in place, that is, tipping a certain percent because it is expected.
It is different here and I do tend to feel "pressured" by the tipping system. First, because in general the restaurant expects to turn the table (depending on type and fame of restaurant) either 2 or 3 times. Servers are expected to help in this process by which they too benefit. There is no way that this does not generate negative consequences and repercussions on the evening at hand.

I can understand the frustrations of Term2. Yet there are few restaurants that would break out of
this established system. I would prefer to have a service charge added to my bill and have the pleasure to "award" my server for making my dinner special above and beyond what is simply required of the job.

Sure, they can do this too, but it is an indirect measure.

I don't run a Restaraunt. I believe tipping gives me the ability to provide feedback and to solicit better service. As a customer it provides me a controls. Therefore, I prefer it.

Your argument it that it is better for the Restaraunt management/owner NOT to tip. Maybe. But it is not better for the customer.

The only job I had in my life that I really loved was
a job I had in Staunton, Virginia, where I started
working when I was 18, at a curb service restau-
rant. I was a carhop. (Eventually I quit,because
one of the two managers, the one who had hired
me, kept pestering me to slow down; that ruined
it for me; I think he was trying to destroy my
professional pride in the job). I was paid 75
cents an hour.(Minimum wage was then $1.60).
But the possibility of tips was what made it
exciting; and when a rush was on, it was won-
erful. Sometimes I made a lot of tips, sometimes not; when a certain co-worker and
I were on together, we used to compete in a
friendly rivalry. It would have made the job
so boring if the tips had been replaced by a
flat wage. By the way, there was no such thing
as the revolting custom of putting the tips all
in one pot and splitting them up. Yes, I tip
when I think the person deserves it (I ususally
can find some reason to do so). I just despise
people who go in and ignore everything good
the server does. And especially if they hand
out religious tracts as a substitute.

I am totally for tips...that way I can reward those who provide excellent service. Those that provided the worst service will only get a penny. Most of the time I will tip 20% of the bill before tax. On buffets, I tip 10% before tax. My mother recently told me I should be tipping when I call in an order for pick-up...anyone else heard of this load of melarchy? She said that it is the wait staff that boxes it up, and since they could be earning the tips while servicing another on-site customer, they "deserve" it. Thoughts?

Hello blarman,
This is an interesting article, especially since I had never even thought about an alternative to the current system. The system of tipping does seem to put the illusion of control of the level of service I receive in my hands. I think, sometimes, it is a fairly effective incentive although I have been known to let good cleavage take the place of good service (I tip much better if there is both)(let's not mention alcohol) and a male server better be good since he has nothing else to offer. Lol.

I would welcome the competing methods since both would have their place. A large chain known for their consistently cheap, consistently edible (nothing more) food may have a difficult time attracting good management and so the customer might still influence his level of service with a tipping situation when management failed to do so. Some others, having better management, would create conditions that ensure good service without the tipping process. I would have no problem going to either place and may the better system win in the market.

I have worked in the service industry most of my life and even though I rarely have the extra money, I do tip, always and well. Even if the service is terrible I will tip $2.

Allosaur:
OMG- my first laugh today...
You must have been a killer "decades" ago!?

I still think that the success of the restaurant is the responsibility of the manager. A good manager knows whats going on with service and food and pricing. He tries to balance all that to make the restaurant profitable. I would feel better about some non cash method, maybe right there in the restaurant, of assessing service, as one does in posting on YELP. Sometimes I have good suggestions, but the atmosphere isnt really great for customers to make comments. The manager can look at comments when things have quieted down and make his assessments and then deal with monetary issues with the employees. If the profits go up and the customers return- most likely its because he is doing a good job.

A lot of managers roam the dining room so they keep on top of the service they are giving. That way they keep in touch with the customers they are serving. If I had a restaurant I would certainly do that and not just trust that my employees were doing what was needed to make my restaurant a success. Servers are not the end all in restaurants either. What about the cooks that actually prepare the food. I would say thats even more important than the service, and its important for the boss to monitor the quality there too. Check out that Gordon Ramsay "kitchen nightmares"!!

An intelligent offering.

Acknowledging the point that the server is self-interested, do they actually get more in tips for quality or for quantity? I think that is one of the primary sources of discussion. Both are an integral part of the overall equation. One thing that comes to mind is that the quality aspect is far more subjective than the quantity aspect. For someone who likes to deal in absolutes, I can see how the more seemingly quantifiable aspects would appeal. But I would question in the long-term which is actually the better move?

Restaurants depend on a certain level of traffic just to pay the bills. They have fixed overhead costs which they append to each and every plate they serve based on an estimate of aggregate traffic. Without this minimum traffic, the restaurant goes under. Traffic over and above this level goes toward the profitability - and ultimately the manager's bonus. So the manager is ultimately interested in serving as many customers as possible within the time allotted, and the manager can certainly influence the servers in this respect. But I see this as a management decision - not a server decision.

Now the server has two components of their pay to juggle - one which is basically show-up pay and which is independent of the number of customers who come through the door. This is the part the manager has a vested interest in keeping low because it acts as part of the overhead that comprises those fixed costs which determine the minimum customer level for profitability. The second part is one the manager doesn't think to consider at first because he/she sees no direct benefits from the tips like the server does. What the adroit manager takes into account, however, is that the competency of the serving staff (as can be partially measured by tip performance) is a direct factor in the repeat business of that customer. And as any savvy businessperson will attest, it is 10x easier to retain a customer than find a new one. So in reality, when the customer signals their approval of their dining experience with a generous tip, they are also strongly indicating their opinions of the establishment and their intent to return or give a positive recommendation to others. That is important not to overlook.

That being said, I completely agree that some diners take the cultural aspect of a tip into higher concern than the value actually exchanged. But I see this as a lack of engagement on the customer's side rather than on the restaurant's side. It's the difference between a high-information voter and a low-information one, imo.

Clearly, there are many factors to juggle and each potential audience or market is going to differ as to what factors are going to attract it, thus I doubt there is a definitive "answer" to the question which addresses all situations, all markets, and all restaurants. I guess the only true test is to see how the experiment in this article "pans out" (another bad pun, I know. Trust me, my family gets them daily).

I'm not at all convinced service is a zero sum game. In fact, I suspect the waiter-waitresses being happy to see us come in improves their attitude and service for all.

Asking the restaraunt management to measure the service is frought with error, compared to direct feedback from customers via tips. This is very much like central control and planning by the government versus multiple private industry.

The restaurant in the article agrees with you and they are going to try it out. Hopefully, they'll post a follow-up article evaluating the results and how customers like or dislike the experience. Experiment -> results.

I did find your choice of management philosophies interesting. Having earned an MBA, I am interested to see if the authoritative approach you are advocating works in a customer-facing service industry like the restaurant business, which is a very low-margin industry in general. In general, collaborative environments that set basic guidelines but which allow individual employees some leeway in their interactions with clients (ostensibly to cater to their individual needs) seems prima faciae to be a better fit, but (to pardon the pun) the proof is in the pudding, is it not? :)

I posted the article.

I didn't downvote you for your position or your arguments. I clearly pointed out in the original post that I expected a lively discussion and that it was likely that both sides would present cogent points. That being said, I had to stop for a second when the post turned to a personal attack with a comment on someone's attitude.

Regarding your observations about the restaurant industry in general, I don't think anyone is claiming it is perfect. Different ways of doing business are how economies progress and better serve customers. The main measure of success is staying in business. I think everyone in this forum objects to the looter mentality, they just disagree whether or not the practice of tipping is part of it - which was the entire point of the article.

I think it can be argued that there is a fine line between tipping for value and tipping as part of the cost, and your points are not without merit. I don't see from any of the comments that anyone is arguing any such thing. It's an exchange of viewpoints and I would like to see us all remain professional and objective.

Whoever posted this thread did say there would be a lot of activity. That's because restaurant service is replete with 'entitlement' philosophy (living wage and all), expectation of tips, and frankly pretty bad service overall. One doesnt get to voice an opinion very often on this subject as most people seem to be trapped into the "having to tip" mentality and they object to anyone who does not tip 15-20%. I didnt expect to see that attitude here, so it was a bit upsetting when it was thrust in my face again in this setting. There is no such thing as a living wage, and servers shouldnt expect tips as some sort of right.

Isnt it really the manager's job to set the service level and then hire the employees to achieve that level? He has to do it with the cooks for sure, and we dont even see them typically. I just think things would work better if the servers were handled the same way. The manager sets the way things will be done in terms of level of service, and the employees carry that out. On another note, I think before servers get hired, they should really study how to be a good server. Its not that obvious, based on what I see out there.

Before deciding whether to tip or not, one should be informed whether the server derives his income totally or partially from the tipping, or is salaried.

Is the tip the only income of the server ? If so, the server should be paid according to the value he brings.

Is the server already receiving a salary from his employer ? If so, tipping should not be required, as the server's salary is implicitly already included in the meal's price.

Third case ; the server receives some kind of below-poverty level salary from the restaurant, and the restaurant tacitly counts on the customer to pay more. In that case, it's a bit hypocrite on behalf of the restaurant, since the meal price is lower than it should be if the server's pay was competitive, while the employer can still claim that the server receives a salary.