Religous Freedom being used as an argument to support discrimination

Posted by Maphesdus 12 years, 2 months ago to Legislation
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New Arizona legislation could give business owners the right to discriminate against anyone they want, as long as they have a religious reason for doing so. If this passes, it would effectively destroy the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as well as all other Civil Rights and equal protection laws.


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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The breakdown in black communities and families is due primarily to the war on drugs, not the Civil Rights Act.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It depends on the law. On the one hand, it is true that a bad law can cause problems (for example, the 18th Amendment, which was repealed by the 21st Amendment). However, the fact that bad laws can cause harm does NOT mean all laws are bad or that all laws cause harm. That would be a fallacy of association. Some laws are very good, in fact even necessary for civilization. With no law, we would have anarchy.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually, I'm pro-business and pro-strong* government. I just happen to strongly support Civil Rights. And yes, religious beliefs do not excuse a person from obeying the law. Religion must never be allowed to overrule government. Otherwise we would have a theocracy and not a republic.

    (*Note that I said strong government, not big government. Big government is authoritarian, but weak government is anarchy. A small but strong government is ideal in my opinion.)

    There are several religious beliefs which are not permissible under our current government. This isn't even a start on a comprehensive list, but here's a few examples:

    1. Polygamy: Fundamental to Judaism, Islam, and Mormonism.
    2. Racism: Judaism ("The Chosen People"), Islam ("Mohammed was the best man from the best family of the best tribe among the best etc."), many Christian sects, Shintoism.
    3. Vigilantism: Judaism, Islam, some Christian sects.
    4. Sacred Prostitution: Numerous pagan religions.
    5. Human Sacrifice. (I invariably cite the requirement for sacrifice to Huitzilopotchli, "Lest the sun go out!")
    6. Collective Suicide. - MASADA -, and I do hope that you can tick off a few of these "cults" yourself.

    Ultimately, there have to be limits on religious freedom. While private associations may limit their memberships, public commerce and public accommodations are quite different matters. Or would you rather that we revert back to the interminable religious totalitarianism and strife that gave us internecine conflicts such as the Thirty Years' War and the Crusades? Freedom from religious persecution was one of the principles that our government was founded upon. The Founding Fathers, so well schooled in history, grasped this clearly. That's why it I'm so astounded that the religious fundamentalists of today seem to struggle with it so much.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thomas Sowell makes the argument that the Civil Rights movement has hurt minorities more than it has helped them. It's an argument I've heard before, but I'm not convinced, and Thomas Sowell fails to provide any convincing evidence in that video. His main argument is essentially just a post-hoc fallacy that African Americans were progressing faster before the Civil Rights movement than they were after, and therefore the Civil Rights movement was the cause of their stagnation. However, we must be careful not to engage in post-hoc reasoning (just because event A occurs before event B, that doesn't mean event A caused event B).

    Honestly, I think the thing that's hurting African Americans more than anything right now is the war on drugs (which disproportionately targets African Americans), and not the after affects of the Civil Rights movement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7M9eYHjC...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdGGx7fj9...
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It would most likely involve low-skill manual labor of some kind. So not impossible, but it would definitely need some thinking and proper organization to make it work right. But that's a long way off, and I would rather focus on other things first to develop my skills as a business owner before tackling something so experimental.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry, but that article contains absolutely no examples whatsoever of Civil Rights harming minorities. That entire article amounts to nothing more than a prejudiced bigot arguing against equal rights.

    Granted, there have been some (rare) cases where a person might have thought they were being discriminated against when they're really weren't, but that is not a legitimate reason for opposing Civil Rights.

    Also, the man who wrote that article, Harry Browne, is the author of a book titled "Why Government Doesn't Work," which is simply a rediculous statement. There are certain kinds of government which don't work (Communism, Socialism, Fascism, etc.). If he said Communist government doesn't work, he would be right. If he said Socialist government doesn't work, he would be right. But to simply say that government of any kind doesn't work is such an absurd statement that anyone who makes it can be called nothing but an anarchist. He has no credibility.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So you're saying businesses should have to be "forced" to obey a law that puts them in direct conflict with their own religious beliefs? Do you hear yourself?
    You're anti business and pro big goverment. Why are you here Maph?
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No no...go with that light bulb idea... start a business just for low and unskilled workers...homeless people...yeah yeah...do that. Why has no one ever tried that before... it's brill!!
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Choosing not to hire people who lack the skills necessary to do the job is not discrimination. In order for any selective action to qualify as discrimination, it would have be a prejudiced judgement against an immutable trait or characteristic. Lack of skill is obviously not an immutable trait, and therefore making hiring decisions based on lack of skill does not qualify as discrimination.

    Though I admit I have dreamed about creating some kind of company that could put low or unskilled laborers (such as homeless people) to work, but I'm not quite sure how I would work out the logistics of that, so for now I'm just focusing on developing my skills so I can eventually create my game development company.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It might harm their emotional conduits...and what does it matter?...I OBVIOUSLY discriminated them and avoided having to come into contact with them...much like a business owner should be able to do. If I don't like you, for whatever reason, because you're a college kid who thinks he knows more than he does, because you drive badly, because you're pants are too short or you have bad breath why is there a law saying I HAVE TO put up with you because I own a business...why am forced to do business with someone I don't not give a rats ass about? Why are there laws forcing personal interaction compliance? Refusing to do business with someone does NOT harm them... if anything it harms the business owners bottom line, but that's why it should be the business owners choice...HE FRICKEN OWNS THE PLACE!
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How does refusing business to a person simply because they're a minority harm that person? Really? You're actually asking me that?
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Way to play the race card unnecessarily. Go read Kh's new post...Mr. This Should be Against the Law... cuz more laws fix everything, right? (Can't WAIT til you start a business.)
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Crossing the street doesn't harm anyone. Refusing business to them does.

    And discrimination is already outlawed against minorities, women, people with disabilities, veterans, and a few other categories as well. I simply think those same protections which already exist for these groups should be extended to the LGBT community as well (and they already are in several states).
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You said "unsavory appearance," which is a term that, if given legal sanction as valid reason for discrimination, could permit racist business owners to drive out customers of a certain race on the grounds that they had an unsavory appearance. It could also be used to drive out anyone the business owner simply thought was ugly. Have you ever heard of the Ugly Laws?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_law

    Oh, and just so you know, back in the 1960s and earlier, people who opposed equal rights for African Americans tried to use the argument that if blacks were allowed into their bars and their restaurants, it would drive off their white customers.

    So congratulations for succumbing to the same logic used by the defenders of Jim Crow laws. ;)
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Who said a damned thing about race? YOU interpreted it that way. Thank you for revealing yourself. Once again... a business owner doesn't want people in their establishment that will run off other customers. (Does this not make logical sense to you? Business owners are trying to MAKE MONEY...why would they want customers leaving?? They need a profit to stay in business...they ain't runnin' charities.) Take that whatever way you want to. (Should I have a cow about the men's golf clubs? NOOOO! If they only want men there what the hell do I care?? People need to get over themselves and stop acting like establishments are beholden to them because they breathe and have over sensitive feeeeeelings (oh whoa whoa whoa).
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